Bipolar in the teen years and beyond in rural Iowa, Just Ask Mom episode 18

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Jill discusses caring for her son whose bipolar disorder surfaced during the teen years. She describes the lack of resources in rural Iowa, the criminalization of mental illness and how that affected her family. She explains how this journey as a mother makes you learn who you are as a person and how strong you can be.

Transcription

[music]

Female Voice: Welcome to the Just Ask Mom podcast where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illness. Just Ask Mom is a Mothers On The Frontline production. Today we will listen to Jill, a mother from Iowa, share her story about raising a son with bipolar disorder.

Tammy: Thank you for doing this. We really appreciate you being here.

Jill: Absolutely.

Tammy: Before we get into a lot of the content could you tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering, who are you? What are your passions? What are you interested in?

Jill: It’s a great question. Well, first of all, I think I’ve known since I was five years old, probably or even before that I wanted to be a teacher. My grandmother was a teacher, my aunt was a teacher. I would have to say that was my focus through high school. I went to college, I’m a teacher and I’m very passionate about it, very passionate about early childhood education. I currently decided to personally take a step back and decided to work on my Master’s degree.

Tammy: Wonderful.

Jill: Yeah, between doing that and teaching full-time and having two children, let’s say two teenagers at home. [laughs]

Tammy: You’re busy.

Jill: It’s busy. When I have a free second to breath and if I’m not writing the research paper or discussion thread I am spending time with my family and friends. That’s very important to me. I like to exercise, I love to be outside in the summer in my flower garden. That’s kind of me by myself.

Tammy: So you knew early on what you wanted to do?

Jill: I did and I think that doesn’t happen a lot.

Tammy: No.

Jill: I I think a lot of children these days are just full of pressure. “I don’t know what I want to do. I don’t know what I want to do”, and I just tell my boys I hope it’s just a lucky one. So, 20-some years I’ve been in it and I don’t ever see myself do anything else.

Tammy: Oh, that’s wonderful. You love it, that’s great.

Jill: I do, yes.

Tammy: It’s a gift when your passion can become your work.

Jill: Yes, absolutely.

Tammy: Absolutely. I want you to pretend that you’re talking to other parents. What do you want them to know about your experience as raising a child with a mental health condition? What would you want them to know?

Jill: I would say number one, trust your instincts. If you see something maybe that is out of character for your child, maybe something that differs from what they have “typically”, how they’ve been acting. I guess just picking up on those little cues. I look back over the journey with my son it’s been three years. Three years and three years now has gone by and I look back at some of the things and say. “Wow, I wish I would have been– went with my gut more than I did”. Does that make sense?

Tammy: It does. Now with your son, was there a clear before-and-after of an onset of symptoms, did it sort of come on at a certain point in his life or did you always see it his whole life, or?

Jill: No. We did not see it early on in life at all. There was no signs or symptoms at all. Probably started seeing it at the age of 15, his hormones were really coming on. When we first started seeing signs like I said looking back impulsive behaviors and things that typically hadn’t been characteristic of my son, but because some of it we kind of blamed on, “Oh, he’s a teenager. Oh, he’s sowing his oats, he’s doing this”, but then he would be fine for a while. Then well, we’d have another as well, I say now an episode of just uncharacteristically behaviors. I should have went with my gut more than I did but I did try to get some help right away, but that was difficult and that probably will come next.

Tammy: Yeah, tell me about that because let me just go back to one thing.

Jill: Yes, please do.

Tammy: You’re bringing up a really important issue because when you’re dealing with children’s mental health, there’s a whole gamut. Some kids have things from very young like Tourette’s usually comes around to age seven, for instance, but a lot of kids have conditions that surface during the teenage years. That’s when the conditions start to have their first symptoms. As you said it’s hard to know is it just being a teenager or not.

Jill: It completely was because from birth up to that point he had been a straight A student. He had been an austere athlete. He had been the kid that never broke a rule, if there was a line he was going to walk it. That’s why I say trust your instincts because as mothers we know our children better than anyone else in this world. When he was behaving some of these behaviors I’m like, “This is– Okay, I’m not sure. Are we this pushing? Or a teenager–“. Like I said we even went with were there drugs involved because drugs are so rampant in the high schools and things that I was not aware of. I guess maybe naive and I had to open myself up to that and wow, what started were these outbursts, I say outburst because it was the change of behavior. His grades started slipping a little. Socially he started secluding himself from his friends. There would be days maybe even weeks he would just stay at home on the couch and he’d want the curtains closed, and he just wants to watch movies with me. You know, “Okay, well, honey” and his friends would come over and say, “Come on, bud. Let’s go.” Typically before this kind of came on sure he would go. He’d love it, very social kid. Then there’d be times where we get over of laying on the couch. Then we would– he particularly, I remember, got in his car asked could he go to the mall to the nearest city and I said, “Sure, okay”. Called me, got a speeding ticket, was going almost a hundred miles an hour.

Tammy: That’s so dangerous.

Jill: Yes, and this was just a few days after we’d been laying on the couch for a while. Then I got him home and said, “Okay”, had the whole typical teenage speeches, had the whole, “We’re going to take your car”, and then two days later gets another speeding ticket. He was going 95. It was just so mind-blowing because my whole mommy gut, I call that, what’s going, “What is going on”, and so that’s when I’m like, “Okay”. Started in with therapist number one.

Tammy: Talk about that. Why was it hard to get help at first? What was difficult at that time?

Jill: I will be completely honest and people probably don’t want to hear this but I know as a mother I wish somebody would have told me, Iowa is horrible for mental health. I had been born and raised in the state and I will probably live in the state for the rest of my life, but I am highly disappointed with the services and help that we have. From just doing some readings I think we’re one of the worst states in the United States of America.

Tammy: We are. I can feel what you’re saying  – because if I hear what you’re saying  –  this is where I’m at –  me– I don’t want read this in –  but I love Iowa. There’s so many wonderful things about our state but this is so disappointing.

Jill: It is. It’s – it’s heartbreaking.

Tammy: It’s heartbreaking, yeah.

Jill: It’s sad and the first thing I did was say, “Okay, I need a professional” because I am a teacher. I am not a doctor. I just told my son, “Hey, I think we need to talk to somebody to figure out what’s going” because he was talking to me but not really. I think he was not sure, I think, what was even going on with himself. That’s where I was like, “Is this his hormones? Is this puberty has set in?”. He has a later birthday so he is a younger one for his class. I went and got a therapist number one, I say because it’s a long…. So went and he just– it was very difficult. He wouldn’t open up. That’s what we tried first. Then, unfortunately, he attempted suicide.

Tammy: I’m sorry.

Jill: Oh, yeah. It was hard. I can talk about it now because it’s been long enough but I think it was more of a cry for help like I’m stuck in my own body and I’m not sure what’s going on. I came home and he was wanting to sleep, he wasn’t sleeping at night. That was another mommy gut thing where the kid that always slept at night wasn’t sleeping at night. He decided– I saw this package of pills and I’m like– he’s like, “Mom, mom” because just he’s so smart and he’s such a wonderful kid.  And he’s just like, “Mom, I didn’t know what else to do but I took all those Benadryl and I went”. “Excuse me?”. He’s like, “I just can’t do it”. “You can’t do what?”. He’s like, “I can’t not sleep and I can’t, my head is racing. My thoughts are racing”.

Tammy: He’s suffering.

Jill: He’s like, “I just need some rest”. I’m like you know the mother, “Oh, my gosh”. He admitted doing it. We went to the hospital and then they once you go to the hospital with an attempted suicide then, you kind of get a little more help. Unfortunately, we had to go through an episode like that to get a little more help. We moved on to therapist number two which also involved medication. He hadn’t been on any medication until that kind of botched attempted suicide or just attention-getting. I’m not even sure what do we call it now.

Tammy: Clearly he was in deep pain and needed help.

Jill: He did. I think that’s–

Tammy: We take it all so seriously. We need to. Absolutely.

Jill: Yeah, we need to and there was no way, and I wasn’t going to take him to the hospital because his father had said to me, “Well, does he really need to go to a hospital?”. He took several Bendadryl and I think this is a tipping point where he looked at me and said, “I just can’t take it anymore. I need some rest. I need to stop my head from spinning”. I don’t even know because I wish I could– I’m not in his shoes. I didn’t know.

Tammy: How could you?

Jill: How could, how can you?

Tammy: Did the hospitalization was it a relief for him because sometimes it can be really– it can go either way, especially for a teen. It can be such a relief to know there’s a place you can go.

Jill: I think looking back on it because that was three years ago, I think looking back on it, I do think there was some sense of relief but there was also a sense of shame.

Tammy: That’s something we should talk about because that’s something we need to change.

Jill: It is.

Tammy: He’d go to the hospital if he broke his leg, right?

Jill: Yeah.

Tammy: He won’t be ashamed of that.

Jill: Oh, no.

Tammy: Poor kid. He’s ashamed of a health problem that he can’t help.

Jill: Yeah. I think that that was the worst thing is to watch be ashamed and embarrassed. And me was just starting to have my eyes opened. I wasn’t, I had to be strong for him but I had to convey to my 16-year old that this is that we can talk about this. That it’s okay to talk about. They put him in some day treatment. It happened to be during the summer and he went to a hospital in the city is nearest to us during the days for some day treatment. I would drop him off and pick him up. That’s where they wanted to start a medication and he started his first medication. I said first because there’s some things that happened as they change and grow and figuring that out. He responded pretty well to the day treatment. The medication I could say no.

Tammy: It didn’t work, it wasn’t the right one?

Jill: No. That leads into my next thing. Number one was trust your instincts. Number two, be persistent.

Tammy: Yes, because it’s a long journey getting the right med.

Jill: Huge.

Tammy: Something that works for years all of a sudden cannot work, so you’re right. That’s something, a muscle you need to keep throughout your life, right?

Jill: Yes, be persistent.

Tammy: Be persistent.

Jill: There are really so many as we call them, as I say we is– his dad and me – we said there are so many pieces to the puzzle of someone that is suffering from a mental illness. To get the pieces to fit your puzzle to make it look like a nice picture takes time. I remember back when we went to just the scenario, I was explaining when the first time we had the hospital stay and the treatment at the hospital was, be patient, it takes time. You do not want to hear that and I was angry, very angry. No, my son has strep throat I want a medicine that’s going to make him better. No, my son broke his arm I want to cast and in six weeks it’s coming off. My son has a mental illness, I want at least something that can give him some relief.

Tammy: Now.

Jill: Now. Tell me in six weeks it’s going to be better. They can’t.

Tammy: They can’t.

Jill: Nobody can until you try it. Well, we tried this medication and give it six to eight weeks. Whoa. It was causing I would almost say his– my son is recently officially been diagnosed as bipolar, so now we know. It’s been a long few years but I would say the first medication he was on brought on more the manic.

Tammy: Oh, yeah, that can happen too.

Jill: It can and we did not know that but it was more manic and more just random behaviors that were unlike him. Finally, when I say be persistent, I went and I said, “No, we can’t do this. This is not working for my son”. Then we changed to medicine number two, try that six to eight weeks, you have to make sure it works. I’m honestly not even sure. At one point I kept a list of medications that we’ve tried.

Tammy: Keep those lists, those are really important, yeah.

Jill: I do. I have the list and I try to update it as much as possible when they change him. This probably now currently, the stories I was telling you and he was 15 going on 16, my son is now recently turned 19. He’s been on the same medication regimen, main medication regimen for almost a year or a little more of year.

Tammy: It’s working well?

Jill:  It’s working well, he’s responded well.

Tammy: Oh, that’s wonderful.

Jill: We’ve recently had a little bit of a breakdown but we added something that kind of is just so I would say be persistent.

Tammy: Being persistent, that’s really important. One thing just from my own experience that I’ve learned that I didn’t know because I agree with you, it’s impossible as a mom to be patient. You want your kid better now. Sometimes medications that fail, as horrible is that is, that information helps with the diagnosis later. That helps them figure out, “Oh, that’s what’s going on”. That journey is really hard to go through but all that ends up being helpful to figure out what’s going on. It ,ay take a few years but I think it’s helpful when you’re in it to know that. That this may seem like it’s awful right now but this may be giving my child’s psychiatrist great information a year from now that he’ll know what’s going on.

Jill: Document it. This did not work for us.

Tammy: Exactly.

Jill: That’s like I said trust your instincts, go with your gut, be persistent. Those are two main things that now looking back I wish someone would have said to me.

 

Tammy: Yeah, because you have a wisdom as a mom. Our society doesn’t always give us the feedback of how that is so worth, what that’s worth, which is so important. I think that’s great advice.

Jill: Yeah, and I think it’s okay to feel every single emotion in the universe because there were times where you’re just so angry that you can’t control the anger within yourself or at maybe it was directed at someone because you thought they didn’t do enough or you just cry, or why did this happen, or you feel so sad for your child because they’re suffering, not suffering but just they are.

Tammy: They are though.

Jill: I guess it’s suffering it’s– and he’s at that age is, if they can describe it –no- they’re trying. My son, his experience was all of a sudden this hit us at this certain point in life. Well, I’ve never– he never known what this feeling was and so yeah, that’s tricky.

Tammy: You said something I want to follow up on if it’s okay?

Jill: Yeah, absolutely.

Tammy: Because I think it’s another very common experience for us mothers and caregivers that you had to hold your emotions together when your son was going through this. Let’s be honest, we have a whole lot of emotions watching our kids go through this. You’re right, we have to sort of put them on hold. How did you take care of you when that or come back to processing that, and I say this not like because I don’t know how I figure it out either. I don’t know that I’m doing it. I think it’s something we need to talk about as caregivers and as mothers because it’s a very emotional journey we’re on but we don’t often have time to attend to our emotions because we’re literally constantly helping our kid navigate theirs.

Jill: Yeah, and I think it’s important to yourself as a mother. We as mothers stay strong for them because we feel like we are that constant. I feel like I am my son’s strength when he cannot be strong. I have to be strong and not waver and almost like I compare it to an outside of body experience. Okay, I’m going to put me over in the corner for now and this stoic, non-emotional machine that has his mom’s face on it is going to be her. Because right there I’m over in the corner because if I was here I would be a blubbering emotional mm-mm.

Tammy: That’s a great description. I’m sure a lot of our listeners  – I know I can relate to that, that just sounds so familiar to me.

Jill: And to myself. I get back in– my son had the worst, excuse me but, he had a really bad episode at Christmas. One of the many therapists that he had been to which we thought we had gotten a good one, and they’ve been going for about a year, decided that it was okay that maybe he didn’t need to take any medication because we hadn’t had a clear diagnosis. Okay, all right, well, he’d been doing so good and graduated high school, got himself a full-time job, had his own apartment. Then she said, “Let’s just try without”. Of course, my son being a man doesn’t want to have to rely on medication, “Sure, if a doctor tells me I don’t have to, it doesn’t have to”. Long story short, six weeks later manic episode to the full-blown worst episode I have ever seen and he’s 18 years old. I had to pull myself together and I found my own strength that I never thought I had, ever thought I had.

Tammy: You have to be fierce for this job.

Jill: Fierce is a very good word. Fierce, strong, whatever you need to do to get through it. I would say I have learned more about myself. I am 44 years old and I probably know myself better than I have in my entire life.

Tammy: This will do that to you, won’t it?

Jill: It will.

Tammy: It really will.

Jill: And that’s good. It’s okay but I thought I knew myself. I didn’t know myself. I didn’t know the strength that I had as a mother. I think that’s good but how do– I guess going back to your original question, I’m sorry, but how do you how do you take care of yourself? Well, after you get your son settled in the hospital or the care facility or home, wherever they end up being, I went back to the corner and I picked myself up, took my shell off. In the privacy of my own time, in my own place, I felt those emotions. You have to feel them at some point, you can’t bottle them out.

Tammy: They’ll come back to haunt you if you try.

Jill: You will have some major– you need to talk to a professional. You can talk to a relative, a friend. If you are spiritual, talk to your spiritual leader. Do something that you can get those emotions because you’ve got to feel them, you have to feel them.

Tammy: This is where support groups and things like that can also be really useful as well.

Jill: Support groups, absolutely, find someone in your support group because I’m telling you we if as mothers as parents out there, even if you’re not a mother or a father or just a caregiver, you need a go-to person or you need a go-to way to let those emotions go.

Tammy: Yeah,

Jill: Because I know we all as caregivers want to be strong and yes, but you have to remember to deal with your own personal.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Jill: You do.

Tammy: Thank you for that. I think that’s something we need to hear and remember.

Jill: Yeah.

Tammy: So, this is a lot but I’m wondering if you can think back in the past three years about something that has been a barrier to getting help you’ve talked about some of the challenges with finding the right medication and so forth. Has there been something that’s been a barrier or you tried that didn’t work or that you wish would have been different? You wish should be different for people going forward that you experienced?

Jill: I think you all those things you mentioned were barriers. I’m just finding the right fit but I do think I’m going to go back to it a barrier is where I live.

Tammy: Hmm,

Jill:  Not only the state of Iowa that I live in but the county that I live in and my state of Iowa, very limited resources.

Tammy: Hmm,

Jill: We do not have a hospital in the county I live in. So, when I want to– I’ve committed my son twice when I did the committal there wasn’t  a county that had no hospital. So, took him to the county over where the big city is and they kicked me out because they didn’t have to treat my son because he’s not their problem.

Tammy: Really?

Jill: Mm-hmm. because we’re not residents of their county.

Tammy: I don’t realize that they could do that.

Jill: Tell me how, tell me how inhumane that is….

Tammy: Absolutely.

Jill: Inhumane.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Jill: As an educated woman, I consider myself an educated woman. I did not allow that to happen. This last time.

Tammy: Right.

Jill:  I stuck my heels in and said, oh no, my son needs to be treated well. “Well, we have this many people in our county that we don’t have beds for, we don’t have room for.” Wow.

Tammy: That’s shocking because it’s just and that’s something to check on I think. It just doesn’t sound like it could be legal. But we run into these things all the time that seems. like could this happen?

Jill: How could it happen?

Tammy: How could it happen?

Jill: How could it be legal? Exactly. I talked to some of the nurses from this hospital and said I don’t understand it like we have to send him back. We cannot keep him.

Tammy: Mm-hmm.

Jill: So, they gave them some a shot in the leg and said here you go.

Tammy: Yeah,

Jill: Back to your county. What? You have got to be kidding me.

Tammy: So just a lack of resources.

Jill: It’s yes. And I’m going to tell you the story.

Tammy: Yeah,

Jill: It’s very personal as well, but it’s very real in my life when my son went through the episode this Christmas where his doctor took them off his medication and we were in the full-blown manic episode. I could not get my son to get in the car and go to the hospital with me in the nearest town. Could not. He was so far gone mentally that he couldn’t. He still had his automobile, he’s still on his apartment and still had all his freedom. And I was scared for his life. Somehow, some way they found his car abandoned in the middle of the street. And he was knocking on people’s doors at 6:00 in the morning confused. So, they brought him into the police and he was put in jail.

Tammy: Instead of taken to the hospital?

Jill: Uh-hmm, My son was put in jail and charged with public intoxication. So they called me and said, ‘Ma’am we have your son’. We think he’s high on meth.

Tammy: He was manic?

Jill: Yes,

Tammy: That’s what I’m hearing.

[laughter]

Jill: A long pause because there were flames. Those emotions–

Tammy: Right.

Jill: There were flames coming out of my ears and I’m like. “Sir, please any, any drug test you’d like to give him. I’d like for you too because my son is in a full-blown manic episode.” “I just think he needs to sober up, we’ll keep him overnight.”

Tammy: Even after you told them this?

Jill: Yes, even after I told them so. I said alright. Because I honestly want to get my son out and if you’re keeping him right here I’m calling around, I’m going to start trying to find a spot. But why don’t you go ahead, and run a drug test, do whatever you need to do, have him “sober up”? I got a phone call by 8:00 am the next morning.  “Yeah, no, there’s no drugs in his system. He’s not– Yeah. I’m sorry ma’am. He needs some medical attention.” I go “he’s needs some medical attention as soon as possible. Let’s get on it.” Well, that was December 28, my son sat in jail until January 2nd. I had to file papers to get him committed. I had to go to the judge and beg and plead to get him some help.

Tammy: Because they were saying this is criminal activity as opposed to a symptom.

Jill: Thank you. Yes.

Tammy: For an illness that he clearly had?

Jill: Yes and had history. This was just six months ago. He’s had this basically three years and so, I was persistent and did not give up. And I said how, “how is this? how is this okay to keep my son locked up in a jail cell? He’s done no criminal activity.”

Tammy: Right.

Jill: They were like, “we don’t know what to do with him.” They told me, “we don’t know what to do with him. We have nowhere to take him.” That is what’s wrong with mental health.

Tammy: So, in this case, having an access center in your county, having training, CIT training, crisis intervention training among the police. These would have made a huge–

Jill: Huge

Tammy: –difference for your son and for your family. Not to mention for your community who is probably a lot of your neighbors or whoever were frightened.

Jill: Yes.

Tammy: And luckily no one was hurt, it sounds like.

Jill: No, absolutely no.

Tammy: But he could have.

Jill: Oh he could have

Tammy: Got himself into a car accident.

Jill: Yes. And hurt himself or someone else.

Tammy: And hurt himself. So those are just some little examples.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Tammy: So this is a great example of how resources make such a difference.

Jill: They do. And I was persistant and I stayed strong and said I will do whatever it takes. The judges in my county were amazing. The police officers in my county were amazing gave me their home phone numbers and set–

Tammy: It’s wonderful.

Jill: I had probably the best support in a horrible situation I did, but I was persistent. And I do live in a smaller community, but I still think that those judges didn’t have to do that.

Tammy: Right.

Jill: But I will never ever forget the judge’s comment to me. He said, “Jill, your son does not deserve this treatment. I’m sorry, he has done nothing wrong.”

Tammy: I’m so glad you got to hear that

Jill: And I said, “thank you. You know who needs to hear that?”

Tammy:  Your son.

Jill: “It’s my son.”

Tammy: Did he tell him?

Jill:  Later after he got–

Tammy:  Well enough.

Jill: –well.

Tammy:  To hear…

Jill: He did. He said in the courtroom.

Tammy: I am glad you got ’cause some of these families never get that.

Jill: No, I couldn’t believe it. And I lost it emotionally. My stoic face left as fast as it could.  I just cried then. I was on the phone and I remember. Thank you so much. I said I know he does not but this is the problem. And he goes this this the problem, Jill, because I can’t send him home to you, I don’t think he’s safe. I said he’s not. I think he’d hurt me or his brother no. But he’d wander off.

Tammy: Right

Jill: And physically, I can’t keep– He’s bigger than me.

Tammy: Right.

Jill: You know this and I might– And he said so we’re going to keep him here but we’re going to I’m going to get an emergency order. Order him up there to see an ER doctor.

Tammy:  I’m glad you had that. Because then he got the help.

Jill: Yes.

Tammy: Now he’s doing much better.

Jill: Yes. Thank you. He had to stay on in the hospital in this psychiatric wing at the hospital for ten days. I was very worried he wasn’t going to come around. I went every day, I called every day on my lunch break from work and then I went up every day for a certain– you only get a two-hour time window. I went up every night still wasn’t coming back to me. But he knew who I was.

Tammy: Right

Jill: But we were still having some very delusional thoughts but finally they started him back on the medication that the doctor had taken him off. They, they uped it because obviously, they needed, they wanted to get it in his system faster. Then on the way home one night, his doctor that was treating him at the hospital called me and said, “Yeah I don’t think this by itself is working. Can I add a mood stabilizer?” I go, “sure.” We had tried that another time and it had worked for a while but we took him off focus he gained so much weight.

Tammy: Hmm,

Jill: Because there are so many factors medication and weight and other things that it affects.

Tammy: Right

Jill:  And within 48 hours I have my son back. I went up to visit him and he’s like, “Mom” and just tears of joy. I was so happy to have him back. So then they let him go a day or two later so. He’s healthy.

Tammy: That’s wonderful. So, you’ve actually already answered the next question–

Jill: Okay.

Tammy:  –which is what has worked. But if there’s something else you want to mention.

Jill: Yes…

Tammy: –something that you wanna say this works please keep this.

[laughter]

Jill: Yes.

Tammy: –keep making sure this happens for other people.

Jill: You know I just you know had I had really good luck with some really great people that were compassionate and understanding. And I think also most of the adults that I had interaction with were saddened too at the situation that they felt helpless because they wanted to help me but they couldn’t.

Tammy: Hmm,

Jill: So I think that was something. What else has worked well? Just be you know to be the best advocate for your child. You know our mental health system in the state of Iowa that I live in needs work but be an advocate for your child. You’re the person that knows your child more than anybody else in the world. So say to them you know this is what I’ve seen, this doesn’t work. This is what I need. This is what my child needs. And you know what. Even if your child is old enough, my son is old enough to say hey this makes this is working for me.

Tammy: Yes

Jill: Or this isn’t working for me. Don’t not say what you want to say. This is not something you can just say, “Ok, not a sore throat. Let’s try this and see if it works.” Something much bigger than that. And so yeah, I’m kind of outspoken sometimes

Tammy: That’s a good trait to have when you’re dealing with this. [laughter]

Jill: It is, and you don’t have to be. You don’t have to be outspoken and boisterous kinda like I am, but you need to at least say what you’re feeling. Advocate for what you think. Advocate for what you think your child needs.

Tammy:  Right

Jill: Don’t hold back.

Tammy: Right

Jill: Just don’t, because you don’t want anything to end or end up in a situation that you could have avoided.

Tammy: I think that’s really good advice.

Jill: You know.

Tammy: So, we like to ask these next three questions–

Jill: Yeah

Tammy: –each time. First of all, we recognize that this journey is constantly changing where we’re at. So just at this moment where do you feel? Do you feel like you’re swimming, drowning, or treading water?

Jill: I had to think about this question I have to really think about that but my first response really is were swimming right now. I know I just came off the story of what happened to six months ago.  But honest to goodness, six months later where I’m sitting on this day in the month of June, we are swimming.

Tammy: Good

Jill:  His treatment plan is working. He is following his treatment plan. He is doing what he needs to do. And as of most recently he looked me in the eye and said, “Mom I don’t ever want to feel that way again”. He was old enough maybe to understand. He doesn’t remember the whole episode and they say sometimes you don’t get full memory of it.

Tammy: Right

Jill: And maybe that’s a blessing because some of the things he was saying, that came out of his mouth. Maybe it’s not characteristic of him. Typically, when he is on a basing in level. But I’d say for the most part, we’re swimming, or moving forward he’s doing, like I said ,his treatment plan and he’s also he’s back to work. He’s back to smiling. He’s back to laughing. Me? As for me. It’s not it’s about me but–

Tammy: No, this question is about you.

Jill: [laughter] Yeah true. It is about me. Yeah, Yes. I’m swimming, I’m swimming. I feel good. I feel good. I feel good because I feel that I did everything I could. We got, in the end, it was a hard a hard thing to get even the last six months. I’m not even talking about the last three years of my life but in the last six months, I feel like boom, did it! You know we’re here and I’m able to kind of just and I don’t go to work and I worry about my phone ringing or I don’t go to work and think, oh I hope he gets up. I mean out of bed and gets going. I’m swimming because I know that’s all happening.

Tammy: Yes

Jill:  I’m saying he’s swimming because I see it

Tammy: Don’t you love boring days.

Jill:  I love boring days.

[laughter]

Jill: I love a boring day.

[laughter]

Tammy: They’re the joy of my life.

[laughter]

Jill: Yes.

[laughter]

Tammy: Days you not in panic mode –

Jill: Yes.

Tammy: – are so awesome.

[laughter]

Jill: Those are so awesome and so when they’re there, take them for every minute of that day because yeah.

Tammy: I agree.

Jill:  Because it could change next week.

Tammy: Exactly

Jill: My mantra has been when someone asks me a question like are you treading water, drowning, or swimming. I’m consciously optimistic.

Tammy: Right

Jill:  But we are swimming.

Tammy: Yeah.

Jill: Because in six months something can happen.

Tammy: That’s right.

Jill: But I try to look at it as six months. If my son wasn’t suffering or having this mental health issue there be something that would come up in his life anyway.

Tammy:  Absolutely

Jill:  I have a younger son who is recently turned 16. He has shown no signs or symptoms. But you know a bump in his road is, “Ugh,I did not want to get up to an ACT test”.

[laughter]

Tammy:  Oh, no.

[Inaudible]

Jill: Or having a bad day or his girlfriend broke up with him.

Tammy: Sure.

Jill: So he’s sad. You know, I mean where my other son who’s 19. It could be, “Oh, I haven’t taken my medicine for a week” or all of a sudden becomes depressive and won’t get out the bed. I mean there’s just aaah!

[laughter]

Tammy: But the truth is, life, in general, is unpredictable.

Jill: It is.

Tammy: One positive thing of going through this difficult experience is I think you become flexible to deal with that.

Jill: Totally. You are right.

 

Tammy: Because you have to, right.

Jill: There’s no other option.

Tammy: There is no other option

[laughter]

Jill: No other option. No other option

Tammy: So, what is your self-care routine. Or as I like to say sometimes it might even be a survival technique.

Jill: Yeah

Tammy: Like how do you take care of you.

Jill: Well I think my number 1 thing has been over the last three years my journey with my son and being his caregiver is to talk openly about it.

Tammy: Uh-hmm.

Jill:  Don’t hold it back. I think at first, I kind held a little bit back because I wasn’t sure you know who really to talk to and who wouldn’t be like– I know there are stigmas and there’s judgments and when I gave birth 19 years ago, did I think that my son would end up having a mental illness? No. But it’s what. It’s just life, you know.

Tammy: Uh-hmm.

Jill:  And so, it’s not. You shouldn’t be ashamed of it.

Tammy: That’s Right.

Jill: You shouldn’t feel like someone’s looking at you like what did you do, what kind of parent are you. It’s no. It’s an illness like, you know I have a friend who is diabetic just recently.

Tammy: Right

Jill: So, she has to treat that the rest of her life otherwise she can get really sick and die.

Tammy: Exactly.

Jill: So, I’ve tried to compare that with my son’s illness. He has to treat it and stay on top of his treatment plan. Otherwise, things can happen.

Tammy: That’s right.

Jill: It’s like an illness like– I know for a fact he’s going to live a long and fruitful life and amazing things are going to come his way. And I think he’s starting to believe that.

Tammy: Good.

Jill: And I think that I think I just– I try not to think too far advance, but I think it’s good to be open and talk about it.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Jill: I do. I think that’s important. I just also try to take time for myself. You know just me when I feel like I’m an empty vessel or I’m a last jar and I’m empty. I need to just take some time. Honestly, even if it’s for a couple of hours and just go for a walk by myself.

Tammy: Um-hmm.

Jill: I took up yoga. Just go–

Tammy: That’s great.

Jill: –and do some yoga poses. I’ve been considering meditation because I’ve heard it’s wonderful. Just you, just me being with me. And like I said earlier at this age who knew I didn’t know myself.

Tammy: Um-hmm.

Jill:   And I think self-care, with that you find out who you are.

Tammy: Yeah.

Jill: If really you say, “Wow, I think I’m an okay person.”

Tammy:  It’s like, oh she’s pretty awesome.

Jill: I might hang out with myself, If I–

[laughter]

Tammy: I think I should hang out with her. Exactly. I love that.

Jill:  Yeah,

Tammy: I love that.

 

Jill: Yeah. So

Tammy: So, here’s the last question we end on. I think any mother can give you a laughable moment.

[laughter]

Jill: Yes

Tammy:  So, what is your most laughable moment?

Jill: Oh jeez.

Tammy: What makes you smile when you look back and think oh my goodness.

[laughter]

Jill: I don’t know. And this is hard because– Ok, so laughable moment as in myself and my son’s mental illness and dealing with that . What’s the most laughable moments with that?

Tammy:  It can be. Yeah.

Jill:  Well honestly, it was as of recently. I can laugh now. I think it’s what that’s kind of the question you’re asking me.

Tammy: Sure

Jill:  What’s a moment that you can laugh at now. Well or that’s how I’m reading it.

[laughter]

Tammy:  It’s however you want to interpret the question but just something makes you sort of laugh like oh that was funny. [laughter]

Jill: It was and it was it’s so funny now but– So, when my son was committed to the hospital to get medication back and get him stable and able to function, I would go up every night and you can’t take anything in with you. You know it’s just me and my younger son couldn’t go because he wasn’t old enough and whatever. So it go in and oh my goodness, every day he’d see me, he recognizes me but he would talk about all his brothers and sisters and all these babies that I had.

[laughter]

Jill:  Just things and then the craziest part  – there was a lady that was my age. Very nice. And she would lecture me every night about my skincare because [laughter]  I’m naturally kind of dark complected anyway so, “Do you use a tanning bed. My husband is a dermatologist and she would just over and over…

[laughter]

Jill:  And then she– Jake would put lotion on my skin. And looking back on that one. Well, Ok.

[laughter]

Tammy: Right.

Jill: I have to laugh now but it was because I knew he was there and he was getting the care he needed.

Tammy: Right

Jill:  He was safe,he was clean. He was getting the medication but not all the chemicals in his brain were clearly working correctly yet. [laughter]

Tammy: Right

Jill: “So, mom remember that brother I had name Zach?” and I’m like, “Oh, okay no honey that’s probably…”  Oh, jeez he does– and he I and would just giggle and we would just–. Oh my goodness.

Tammy: Yeah

Jill:  But anyway.

Tammy: Yeah.

Jill: I don’t know. I have to laugh now.

Tammy: That’s right. Sometimes if you don’t laugh you cry.  Sometimes laughter helps a lot.

[laughter]

Jill: Thank you.

[laughter]

Jill: I would say that. At the time I would leave the hospital and I’d be like, “did that really just happen?” And I’m like, “ok, ok. Get it together.” And that’s where I said I wish- when was he going to come back to me like when? And now that he’s back. And we’re all good. I look back on that moment.[laughter] Did that all really happen? I remember him putting lotion in my hands and you know because you will and you will have the moments that are ingrained your head. Whether it’s good, whether it’s bad, ugly, beautiful. There are those moments. I have all of those and that’s one that I’m just like, oh my god that’s–

[laughter]

Jill: Because you know you have to. You have them all in.

Tammy: That’s right.

Jill:  And it’s just an emotional thing.

Tammy: I want to thank you, Jill, for sharing your story with us.

Jill: Oh, absolutely.

Tammy: It really is wonderful to have you share with us. Thank you

Jill: Good, thank you. Thank you just for letting me tell my story and my son’s story because it’s very therapeutic for me as well.

Tammy: Oh, thank you. I’m glad to hear that.

Jill: Yes, thank you.

[music]

Female Voice: You have been listening to Just Ask Mom copyrighted in 2018 by Mothers On The Frontline. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is Old English written, performed, and recorded by Flame Emoji. For more podcasts and this and other series relating to children’s mental health go to mothersonthefrontline.com or subscribe to Mothers On The Frontline on iTunes, Android, Google Play or Stitcher.

[end]

 

 

The difficulty of getting the right diagnosis and juggling work and care giving, Just Ask Mom Episode 14

Lotus Flower Logo: Just Ask Mom Podcast Series Produced by Mothers on the Frontline. MothersOnTheFrontline.com

In this episode, we listen to Suzette Southfox, a Southern California parent of a 19 year-old son with depression, anxiety and Autism Spectrum Disorder. She tells us about her over ten-year journey with children’s mental health. She discusses the importance of honoring the strength of our children and others with depression who fight each day to get out of bed.

Transcription

Voice Over: Welcome to the Just Ask Mom podcast, where mother shared their experiences of raising children with mental illness. Just Ask Mom is a Mothers On The Frontline production. Today, we will listen to Suzette Southfox, a Southern California parent who lives with her 19-year-old son who has depression, anxiety, and autism spectrum disorder. She has been on the Children’s Mental Health journey for over ten years now. This interview took place at the 2017 National Federation of Families for Children’s Mental Health conference.

Tammy: Just tell us a bit about yourself.

Suzette : Sure. My name is Suzette. I am a tired mom. I work in the Behavioral Health Field in Southern California. I’m an artist and I’m a writer and a performer. I love to communicate and chat with folks and and create art when I can. Don’t get a lot of chance to do that these days but that’s really what brings me joy.

Tammy: Oh, that’s really great. That’s awesome. What kind of art you do?

Suzette: I do a lot of reflective art. I do a lot of spoken word poetry.

Tammy: Oh, wonderful. Yeah.

Suzette: I do spoken word but I don’t have a whole lot of time to do that. I recently did something for a friend of mine who was just ordained as a Unitarian Universalist minister and I was, I was honored to be part of the ordination and I got to do this, it was fun.

Tammy: That’s exciting. That’s awesome. I want you to pretend that you’re talking to parents who are just beginning the journey. They just received the diagnosis for their child of a mental  health condition or maybe they even haven’t discovered a name for what is going on yet, they’re just trying to figure out how to help their child. What would you say to people with that experience based on what you go through?

Suzette: That’s a wonderful question and out of all the people that I would like to talk to  – and there are  many, many that I would like to speak with – the family that’s really finding themselves newly in the world of childhood mental health and behavioral health issues, I would love to talk to them and I would love to tell them that they’re not alone even though they feel like they’re alone. They’re in a very special club which is one that not a lot of people want to join, but they find themselves in.

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: One of the things that I did not get early on and my son was diagnosed around nine or ten years old with ruled out pediatric bipolar disorder and things were very difficult. It wasn’t until he was 16 when the psychiatrist said, “Was he ever tested for autism?” We said, “Are you kidding me?” So, people, weren’t asking the right questions, but once we found ourselves in the world of IEP’s and special ed programs and all of this, we never met another parent. None of the programs ever had, “Here’s information for your parent,” or you would think that the psychiatrist or the psychologist would say, “Here’s your brochure. Welcome to the world of pediatric mental illness. Here is your road map.” They don’t give you one.

Tammy: Absolutely not.

Suzette: No, they don’t and if you’re lucky enough to have someone with lived experience, you may get a road map but it’s so challenging. Finding those other parents and finding what is available is so difficult when you’re dealing with just the stress and the crisis. I was shocked to learn in my area that there was a whole guide for all of the programs and services but it was for other providers. It wasn’t for families and it took me to get into working in the field to actually discover this.

Tammy: Is that what motivated to get into the field?

Suzette: Well, that was one reason. I work with the Faith community for a really long time and what I discovered was the needs and the stress of navigating my son’s challenges. They were taking a toll on my working life. Before we got the diagnosis either I would call in sick, my wife would call in sick. We would be having to leave work. We knew that one of us would probably going to lose our job. She took an early retirement to stay at home because at that time, my son couldn’t get out of the car in the morning. He missed 125 days of school because of anxiety. As we’re going through all of this, we have support of the school but we just didn’t know other families. I think it’s so important to not only tell folks that they’re not alone but there are networks. You just have to be told where to find them.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Suzette: Yes, and that’s the biggest challenge, I think.

Tammy: I think that’s so important because I know my own experience in talking to other people sometimes the most helpful information I’ve got are from other parents, you know, that have been through it. They all checked out this program or this and without that network, without some way to start, you do feel lost so I think that’s really good advice.

Suzette: Yes. There’s a lot of despair also. At least there is and there has been with me and one of the things that I have learned is there’s a whole continuum of what you go through and it’s not linear. It’s not like, “Okay, I’ve gone through crisis and now I’m balancing and I’m moving into advocacy and when I get into advocacy, boom, I’m done.” No, it depends on the day really.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Suzette:  You can go through that continually. I think one of the things that I would want new parents and new families to know is the despair and the concern is visceral, it’s real. It’s probably not going to go away but if you learn to kind of make some space for that and make some space for dealing with it, it gets a little bit easier.

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: I think the biggest problem that I have, and this is really funny, we’re talking about self-care earlier, is when people say, “Take care of yourself.” I know that but it is so difficult to hear because it’s like, “What do you think I’m doing?”

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: I’m trying really hard.

Tammy: Exactly.

Suzette: Sometimes, just getting up in the morning is like, “Whoa, it’s a win.”

Tammy: Exactly.

Suzette: So that’s important and I know self-care is really, really the key, but I think that we need to be a little careful how we talk about that.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Suzette: Yes, it can turn people off.

Tammy: And we don’t know of access to do the same things to care for ourselves. I think that’s another part of it is what does that mean and the context you’re in at the moment, what can that mean for you, right? I think that’s really important.

Suzette: True.

Tammy: Absolutely. As you’re thinking about people who are navigating this early on and it is hard and is lonely and I like the message you have. I do think we can get to a point where we feel like it’s a new normal. We’ve accepted it. We’re functioning. We don’t feel torn apart all the time but then something new will happen and you go through it again. I think it’s good to know that. It’s good to know you will actually function at this level. You might not feel like it when you first hit with it, but I don’t think you’re even done and I think that’s important to hear too. That’s not a bad thing.

Suzette: Yes.

Tammy: But knowing it’s important because if you don’t, the first time it happens again, it feels devastating.

Suzette: Yes.

Tammy: But if you don’t know, you’re going to keep going and having good days and bad days and it’s okay.

Suzette: Right. It’s a learning and then when our loved ones are youngsters, you have the whole developmental issue going on so they’re constantly changing. One of the first, kind of, desperate requests that I made once we had a psychiatrist and medication and treatment plan and psychiatric nurse, God love her, I remember the first call that I made to her was, “I don’t know. I have one child. I was an older mom so I have one child. I don’t have experience. I can’t tell the different what’s developmentally appropriate and what is a mental health condition.” And she said, “Oh, if you could figure that out, you’d make a lot of money,” because I couldn’t. I just couldn’t figure that out. Now, knowing that there’s always that change. There’s always new things happening, suddenly and it’s not suddenly, but now I have a young adult and so we hear about transition, transitioning youth, how do you do that? I have a 19-year-old but I’m not prepared for what to do next because just getting through middle school, getting through high school took everything that I could do. I know they said it’s coming. You have to start when he’s 14. I didn’t get that until he was 17 and so it’s hard. It still gets hard but being able to back up a little bit and figure out, what are the new resources that I need? I have to find maybe a new set of parents. We’re the parents of really young kids. We had an affinity.

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: I would look at parents of teenagers, I was scared of that.

Tammy: Oh sometimes it’s terrifying, right? When your kids are little. You just want to focus on that one thing at a time, absolutely.

Suzette: Yes, and you look at parents of teenagers and young adults and it’s like, “Oh my God, how did you do that? I don’t want to go there ever,” and you’re going to get there.

Tammy: Right. Absolutely. As you’re thinking about your journey in helping your child, can you think of one particular thing that’s been really challenging, was really difficult, that just didn’t work and you wish could be different?

Suzette: This is going to sound really weird, but listening to him. What I mean by that is, sometimes, and this has been forever, he will tell me what he needs but I’m not hearing it and I’m not hearing it because, oh I don’t know, I’m focused on one thing or another. When I stopped and really listened to what he’s saying, we do better.

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: When he listens to what I’m saying, so it’s like communications piece there.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Suzette: Here’s the hardest part, I’m not very good at it. I communicate professionally but with my own family, I was like, “Wow.” I really have to take it down to basics and give myself permission to make mistakes. That’s the big one.

Tammy: That’s a good point. I think that’s true for any parent, right?

Suzette: Yes.

Tammy: Communicating especially with the teenage kids is hard. It’s challenging, I think, for all of us.

Suzette: Yes and you have to learn how to reset boundaries and you have conversations, and when and if they get a driver’s license, it’s a whole different world. It’s really exhausting.

Tammy: My stressor have just opened up when you said that because that’s what’s in the next couple of years for us, the whole driver’s licensing, yes.

Suzette: It has been an amazing journey and I’m just watching the young people that I know develop and grow, it’s just so exciting.

Tammy: In thinking about getting your child help, what’s worked well? What has been one thing that you’re just so glad things were aligned and worked out well?

Suzette: Well, we had an experience and it was a school related experience as a senior, a high school senior. His depression was so acute. He spent the last two or three months in bed and was not able to even shower or to mention anything and he failed. He wasn’t able to graduate and having that conversation with the school around that, I was empowered.  One of the vice principals basically said, “You know, you’re lazy.” I just took a breath and I said, “We need to talk,” because there’s something called lived experience and I have never used that word before but I heard it and  all of a sudden, “Oh my God, I have lived experience and I have a thing too,” so I’m coming and I have something. I was able to really put the context. We’re talking about behavioral health diagnosis. We’re talking about mental illness, brain chemistry. This is not being lazy. If you had any idea what he does to just survive, I don’t know that any of us could do that so it’s not lazy.

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: That was very, very helpful to me. Really clear in my own mind that we all need to be on the same page, so that was super helpful.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Suzette: Yes.

Tammy: So good for your son to hear that, “No, you’re not lazy and I know you’re not lazy,” I think it’s important. That’s great. We ask this of everyone because we recognize, as we were just saying, as you pointed out, this is different from moment to moment for all of us, but at this moment, are you swimming? Are you treading water? Are you drowning? Where do you feel at this moment?

Suzette: That’s really good question; all three of those, yeah, yeah.

Tammy: That’s a good answer.

Suzette: All three of those. All three at the same time and it’s so hard to manage that, but really I have kind of like a low grade. It’s not a panic but it’s a low grade like, “Help,” because it’s all really hard.

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: I feel like I have good resources and good support so I’m going along okay. I guess I’ve been doing this for so long that my new normal is not what anybody else’s normal is.

Tammy: Exactly and I think that’s what’s really important is you get to a point where this, I can function at this level, even though the average person would be falling apart and maybe we fell apart when that was first our experience. That’s why I love what you said about your child, because I think we often see someone who’s struggling to get out of bed or struggling to go to school and people will say things like they’re lazy or say that someone is anxious so they’re just scared all the time or what have you. The truth is with their condition, they are like super-power to do what they do every day. There are more courage than most people just to do what they’re doing or more strength on going, fortitude to go get something done. I think we just need to give people credit for what they’re doing and I’m in that for them. I love that you said that earlier too.

Suzette: I think it’s struggle that we constantly revisit. I don’t know if anybody else’s have this come out of their mouth, but I’ve done it on number of occasions; “What’s wrong with you?” I don’t mean to say it. Oh my God. I said it once and he turned to me, he says, “Do you really need to know? Would it be easier if I was on a wheelchair?” I thought, “Oh my God. I’ve even said this to other people and I myself am saying this now?”

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: So it’s constantly guarding and learning and checking and remembering.

Tammy: I think that’s a really good point because most of the people we’re interviewing here, they have a child with a life-long condition, right? If you have a child in a wheelchair with a life-long condition we don’t say, “Well, why is it we don’t get up today?” After ten years of being in a wheelchair, right? But we do that.

Suzette: Yes.

Tammy: We do that all the time and I know I’ve done it and actually, when my child’s teachers or family members have to say, “Why is he doing this now?” I’m like, “You know this has been a condition all this time.”

Suzette: Yes.

Tammy: I think that when we’re asking that, what we have to do is sit back and go, “What is it about this moment that I can’t handle?” Because this is our normal, this is our situation.

Suzette: Yes.

Tammy: I’ve imagined that if you do have a  child in a wheelchair for ten years, there might be some days you can’t take it, but you would recognize, “My child’s circumstance hasn’t changed. I’m just having hard time handling it today.” We need to be able to do with mental health and say, “My child’s has the same condition but today it’s really hard for me to deal with.” Did that make sense?

Suzette: Absolutely.

Tammy: I love the comparison that you make there. I think it’s important.

Suzette: Absolutely, it is. You’re absolutely right. Then to give our kids the language to know that, and when he checked me on that as he often does with words that have come out of my mouth, he responds and like and I’m learning constantly from him especially when it’s difficult. He has a sleeping disorder and he goes nocturnal. He also has separation anxiety so when I’m away from him as I am now, he gets very tense.

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: He called me at 7 o’clock this morning which was four and I just checked him 15 minutes before we started and he hasn’t slept yet. I’m very concerned about that and what the household is like and what the stress is like, but you know, it’s just a day.

Tammy: It’s just a day.

Suzette: It’s just a day.

Tammy: Yes, absolutely. What is your self-care routine or as we say with more appropriate, survival technique, because sometime that’s what it comes down to too, right? How do you take care of you when you’re in the middle of all of this because as we’re saying, it’s not always possible to do what we’d like to do so what do you do?

Suzette: You know what? My go-to place is the bathroom.

Tammy: Yes.

Suzette: Sometimes it’s not real safe if there’s pounding or screaming on the other side of the door but if I can get to a place where I can just be isolated and I usually turn the lights off and I just breathe. Just for a minute.

Tammy: Right.

Suzette: Just for a minute and then go back out and I can do that at work. I can do that at church. I can do that at lunch[?], so you can do it anywhere. That’s one thing if it’s a crisis and I just need to step back. I swim and when I’m lucky, I swim in the ocean. I do that regularly.

Tammy: Oh, I’m jealous.

Suzette: I swim with mom.

Tammy: That’s sounds wonderful.

Suzette: She’s a good swimmer. She’s been swimming for years. When I have a chance I get in the water and it’s really wonderful.

Tammy: That is wonderful. That is great. Another question I’d like to ask, because any parents has some of this, right? Kids keep us laughing. What’s your most laughable moment? What makes you laugh or smile when you think back to your experience with your child?

Suzette: Oh my gosh. My son is a professional magician and when I watch him engaged with other people, I mean it’s amazing when you see grown adults going, “What happened? How did that happen? Oh, my God.” It’s just makes me chuckle because he has such a gift to be able to do that, but he does it because he likes to bring joy to people, right?

Tammy: That’s wonderful.

Suzette: So he’s a champion. He’s a knight in shining armor and he loves to bring joy to people and that makes me smile.

Tammy: That has to be fun. You get to enjoy the magic but you also get to be proud of this amazing kid.

Suzette: Yes.

Tammy: Or adult now but always a kid, right?

Suzette: Yes, always a kid. Yes, definitely.

Tammy: That’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

Suzette: You’re welcome. Thank you for asking.

Voice Over: You have been listening to Just Ask Mom. Copyrighted in 2018 by Mothers On The Frontline. Today’s podcast host is Tammy Nyden. The music is Old English, written, performed, and recorded by Flame Emoji. For more podcast in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to mothersonthefrontline.com or subscribe to Mothers On The Frontline on iTunes, Android, Google Play or Stitcher.

[end]

Fidelia’s Journey to Advocacy: From Incarceration to Family Advocate, Ask the Advocate Series, episode 1

In this episode, we listen to Fidelia from Northern California. Fidelia has three children: two sons with behavioral challenges and a 11 year old daughter with anxiety. She shares her journey of mental illness, motherhood, incarceration, and advocacy.

Transcription

[music]

Women’s voice: Mothers On The Front Line is a non-profit organization founded by mothers of children with mental illness. We are dedicated to storytelling as a method of both children’s mental health advocacy and caregiver healing. Our podcasts consist of interviews of caregivers by caregivers out in the community. This results in less polished production quality, but more intimate conversations rarely available to the public. Caregivers determine how they are introduced and the stories they share. We bring these personal experiences to you with the aim of reducing stigma, increasing understanding, and helping policymakers recognize and solve the real unmet needs of families dealing with America’s current children’s mental health crisis.

[music]

Tammy: Today, we start a new format for Mothers On The Front Line called Ask the Advocate. In this series, we hear from mental health advocates about their journeys to advocacy, and what it is meant for their lives. I am pleased to be speaking to Fidelia from Northern California today. Fidelia has 3 children, 2 sons with behavioral challenges and an 11-year-old daughter with anxiety. She also experiences mental health challenges herself.

[music]

Tammy: Hello. Tell us a bit about yourself and the kind of advocacy work that you do.

Fidelia: Um, well, I’m a mother of 3 children, 2 grown sons, and 11-year-old daughter. I’m a mental health advocate for Alameda County in Northern California.

Tammy: So, how did you become an advocate? What got you involved?

Fidelia: I had to advocate for myself and before I could learn to advocate for my children, I’ve been undiagnosed for most of my adult life. I got diagnosed at the age of 35 that I was bipolar, I had PTSD, and I suffered from severe depression. Prior to that, I didn’t believe anything was wrong with me. But so many challenges that I had on the day-to-day basis, making good decisions, healthy decisions, became overwhelmingly just non-existent. I kept ending up with really bad results no matter what I chose to do, and I didn’t understand why, and it was continuous. And so, I started to self-medicate, pretty much just, you know, didn’t know what to do, I just knew that there was nothing wrong with me. My daughter was taken from me twice. Finally, I was just like, you know, there’s got to be something wrong here because it doesn’t matter what I do, nothing’s working out well. I keep ending up in these terrible, you know, situations with, you know, not very good results. And so, there’s got to be something, I need to talk somebody. And so, they came to me and told me, “You know, we’re going to adopt your daughter out,

Tammy: Oh, gosh!

Fidelia: We’re not going to give you services.” I was in jail as a result of poor choices again. I was like, “You know what? If foster care’s going to be the best thing for my daughter right now, I think that’s the best thing going because, right now, I need help. I can’t be a good parent if I’m falling apart, and I need somebody to help me learn how to help myself.” That’s where advocating came in because I had to advocate to get my mind right, to get my life right. And in order to be a good parent, I needed to be straight. So, I was given an evaluation, a psychiatric evaluation, because I requested that. And then, I requested a therapist. They gave me a therapist. And then, I started seeing a psychiatrist, then they prescribed me medication. And once I started taking medication and talking to my therapist on a regular basis, things completely changed. I caught up with myself. I caught up with my mind. I was able to process feelings without acting out impulsively, compulsively, and it was a game-changer because it was like, “Oh, wow. I’m mad right now, but I’m not putting my fist in a wall.” You know? I’m not slashing tires [chuckles] or being ridiculous. That’s where it began for me. And so, I could recognize behaviors in my children, and then I’m like, “Hey. That’s little mini-me right now, undiagnosed.” And then, I was able to start advocating for my sons. My daughter had a speech delay, so I got her assessed, and had I not known anything and got a little education on mental health, she wouldn’t have been assessed. And so, she had a 40% speech delay. I was able to put her in speech therapy. Now, she talks all the time.

Tammy: That’s great though.

Fidelia: But, I’m happy for that. You know what I mean? Without that extra help, you know. Who knows how that would’ve turned out. Also, she suffers from anxiety. She is diagnosed with anxiety at the age of 2 because she was taken from me twice. She stayed with her grandmother, and then when I got her back, it was separation anxiety. So, I couldn’t get her to sleep in her own room for about a year, and I had to use the tools that I had, which was parenting magazines. I had no advocate. I had no family partner. I had none of those things that are in place nowadays. I had to do it for myself, so I spent a lot of time just trying to ask questions and getting help. And, you know, how most people don’t appreciate having CPS and an attorney, and a child’s attorney, and the district attorney, and the judge. Well, I used all these people as my support. You know what I mean? I needed somebody to keep the fire lit underneath me, so I would never have to go through this again. And so, I began advocating for myself. I began completing case plans. When they wanted to close my case, I advocated, “I need you to keep it open another year. I need to make sure that I am solid in my sobriety, in my mental health, and everything else, so I don’t ever have to see any of you people ever again.” That’s where it began for me, I started advocating, and then I just stayed advocating, and I still advocate and now, I help other parents whose children come into the clinic, where they’re seeing for behavioral –  mental health challenges. I help the families, the mothers, the grandmothers, the fathers, the caregivers, the foster parents, and it’s like, “So, what challenges are you facing?” Because not only is the child challenged right now, you’re challenged. You’re the one sitting up at night. You’re the one having to call the police. You’re the one not sleeping because your child’s not sleeping. You know, you need self-care or, you need help with SSI, how can I support you? That’s what I do today, you know. I have had clients say, you know, how parents, who have mental health challenges as well, then we know they’re like, “I’m supposed to be taking anti-depressants.” And I’m like, “Well, why aren’t you taking them?” And they’re like, “I don’t need that. Do you take medication?” And I dig in my pocket, and pull out my pills and say,

 

Tammy:

 

Fidelia: “Yes. Every day. Chill pills at 5 o’clock. I need to act right ’till I can get through the day so I can model for my children how to act right. And then, so the next thing I know I have a client come back in with later saying, “I’ve been taking my pills for about a week and I feel good!” I’m like, “That’s what’s up!”

Tammy: [laughs]

 

Fidelia: “I need you to feel good so you can get through this ’cause this whole process is challenging.” And so, that’s what I do every day and I love it but it’s from lived experience, my own lived experience, not just my child’s lived experience, but mine.

 

Tammy: That must make you just a great advocate. Can you talk a bit about how in your work, experiences that you’ve had? With you having lived experience, it was a game-changer at being able to help someone, so you give this great example. What about with working with parents helping their youth– Is that, can you give other examples? Because I think that’s so powerful.

 

Fidelia: The what? My lived experiences?

 

Tammy: To be able to share that with others.

 

Fidelia: Well, I share it with them all in time. I have no shame in what I’ve been through. I’ve been through exactly what I was meant to go through, so I could help other people get through it. So, whether it be, you know, going to IEPs, I’m there to support them. I tell them, “Well, what are your concerns? I need you to write that down, so you can voice that because your voice needs to be heard at these IEP meetings. They’re not experts on your child, you are. You need to tell them what it is that you believe your child needs to get through a productive school day, not being called to come pick up your child.” So, helping them was like changing in front of my 504-planet school, and making the school district accountable for the education and special resource teachers that are supposed to be in play when their child has an episode. You know, so they can say call up and say, “Hey. You know what? Where’s the resource teacher? You know, you can’t keep sending my child home. He’s not getting the education.” And I helped them through that process. I helped them through the process of personal relationships. I’m a survivor of domestic violence. “Are you in an abusive relationship? Well, what is it that you need to do so you can feel safe, so your child isn’t walking around on edge, who’s suffering from PTSD from witnessing this, and you have PTSD.” We talk about all kinds of personal things because I’ve been through all those personal things; substance abuse, incarceration, I’ve been there, you know. So, we can run the gauntlet of what you want to talk about, but I get them to open up because I’ve already done it. You know, not once, not twice, but probably six or seven times, and still, didn’t get the message that I was supposed to get. So, that’s how I help in any area just about. And if I don’t know about it, then we go and find about it together. That I’m coming to your house, we’re going to meet for coffee, I’m going to meet you at this school, whatever, come to my office. I’m there to support them. They’re my client, you know. So, that’s how I do other advocating.

 

Tammy: You said you went so many years without a diagnosis. Right?

 

Fidelia: Mm-hmm. Yes.

 

Tammy: What kind of things are you saying that have changed, that might make it more likely someone in that situation gets a diagnosis and gets help? Or, this could be the case too, what are you seeing in her, like, “Darn, nothing’s changed here on this issue.” You know what I’m saying?

 

Fidelia: You know, the thing that I noticed and has changed is just on approach, and, you know, to culturally– different cultures and how they approach, and how they deal with mental health, a multi-cultural. And so, the family I grew up in, it was just, you didn’t do psychiatrists, he didn’t take medication. You prayed, and you asked God to fix your mind, you asked Jesus to heal and touch your mind and cure you of whatever mental illness that you had. That didn’t happen. So, I see, now, that there are clinics for children, and when I was growing up. If there were some, we never heard about them. I think, if I were on medication as a child, if I was diagnosed as a child, instead of told that I needed Jesus and that I had demons in –  I probably did with the little help along with the mental health aspect, it contributed,

 

[laughter]

 

Fidelia: –but I think, now, that if I would’ve had that growing up, and how things would probably, more than likely, would’ve been so different for me. A lot of different choices would’ve made because of my mind. Would’ve been in a mindset, my medication would’ve had me thinking differently. And, that’s what I see differently now is that there’s clinics, and clinics and clinics for our behavioral mental health challenges for children. And, when I was in school, you didn’t have a school psychologist, you had a school nurse. That was it. And that was it. So, that’s–

 

Tammy: So, that’s a big positive change?

 

Fidelia: That’s an absolutely amazing change! I think if you can nip it in the bud or get– not so much as nip it in the bud but kind of get a handle on it, you know, while they’re young. It makes for a different future for them that could be more positive than just letting it go, and being like, “Oh, that’s just Charlie. That’s just how he is.” I mean, there’s more to it. It turns into something really serious as an adult. Your decisions, and your choices, and your boundaries, there are none, because everything you’re doing is your normal, and it’s just– it’s not healthy.

 

Tammy: I guess my next question is, what keeps you doing the advocacy work? Because quite frankly, I’m sure it gets hard sometimes, especially when you see things be voted down in terms of funding for programs or all the kinds of things that the disappointments that can go with the advocacy work. What keeps you going through it?

 

Fedilia: Because I’m good at it.

 

Tammy: [chuckles]

 

Fedilia: I’m good at it.

 

Tammy: I can tell. [laughs]

 

Fedilia: I don’t take ‘no’ for an answer. I just refuse to hear it. You could tell me ‘no.’

 

Tammy: [chuckles]

 

Fedilia: But, I’m going to still keep coming at you, and then I’m gonna rephrase the question in a different way, and hopefully you didn’t get it, but eventually, I’m going to get a ‘yeah.’ Whether you’re telling me “Yeah,” just to get me out of your office. That’s all– I got to ‘yeah.’ I’m good for it.

 

Tammy: That’s right.

 

Fedilia: So, I keep going. And all parents should once you figured out, “Okay. This is what it is, and this is my child? This is my child! Not taking ‘no’ for an answer. No no no.

 

Tammy: That’s right. That’s right. I just want to thank you for all that you’re doing, for all the people that you’re helping. It’s a huge thing. And also, again, as a parent, I love to see success stories, they give us so much hope and to get people hope for the middle going throughout this themselves right now. So, just thank you so much for all that you’re doing. You’re such a light.

 

Fedilia: Thank you for your time and your consideration.

 

Tammy: Thank you.

 

[music]

 

Tammy: You have been listening to Ask the Advocate. Copyrighted in 2018 by Mothers On The Front Line. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is written, performed, and recorded by FlameEmoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to mothersonthefrontline.com

 

[end]

 

Raising her grandson after he experienced abuse, Just Ask Mom Podcast Series, episode 5

In this episode, a Grandmother tells us about raising her grandson who experienced trauma and suffered from several conditions, including ADHD, anxiety, bipolar, and learning disabilities. Please note that this story discusses child abuse and may be triggering for some of our listeners.

 

Transcription

Speaker: Welcome to the Just Ask Mom podcast where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illness.  Just Ask Mom is a Mothers on the Frontline production. Today we will speak with a Grandmother who is raising a grandson with mental health and learning disorders.

Tammy: Okay. Alright. So just to begin, just tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering, just about who you are.

Grandmother: Okay. I’m a mother of two boys who are grown, and um, they seem to have a fairly happy life, one has moved back to go to school, and one of them is still living on his own. After my second marriage, my husband had a son, who was a substance abuser and he abused his young son when he was very small. And we took him, in fact we took him because his father asked us to take custody of him so he could get back at his wife for doing things he didn’t like. He didn’t really think we should take him, he just thought that this legal thing would make his wife afraid to talk to anybody. And we got the papers and our lawyer talked him into guardianship, which means you can make all decisions for the child, and when he was hit and really, and really only minorly, we said, “You don’t have to go back.” And he was very happy about that, and he recently told his psychiatrist that was the happiest day of his life. He was six at that time. We have had him now, and he just recently turned eighteen, and he’s moving into this town to live in supervised housing, because he has mental illness and he has intellectual disability. And so he needs to be supervised twenty-four seven, and they offer quite a bit of other programs, things for him to do like go to a parade, or go to the park, or—really not things that cost a lot of money, although occasionally they do, but they get passes to the fair and — what not. And so this is his first day, and he’s very happy about that.

Tammy: Wonderful, wonderful. What would you like people to know about your experience?

Grandmother: I would like them to know that often, children only show the surface of what’s going, we sensed abuse but it was only later when he told us– about a month later, he told us he had been sexually abused, about a year and a half later he told us that his baby brother who had died of SIDS was actually murdered. So he was keeping this all inside. We needed to get help for him, and I really would like mothers to know that, although it just breaks your heart to take a small child to be in residential treatment, that sometimes it’s the best thing and it’s definitely not a horrible bad thing. He was kind of like, “Bye, mom” (that’s what he called me already. They said he cried a little that night, but that’s all. And he learned so much in the various times he was in the residential treatment, and the last time he was in he got into a program that was for both mentally and intellectually problematic children. And I wish there was more because, to my knowledge, it’s one of the few places that has that, and he’s in a– was in place that only took care of eight children.

Tammy: How did that help him? Like, what was positive about it?

Grandmother: One of the best things he learned was coping skills, which as a peer support specialist, I know is one of the first things you teach people who have mental illness is how are you planning on coping with this? It might just be cuddling with a soft warm blanket, it might be setting boundaries with other people that says, “I will not pull up with that.” It might be a warm bath, it might be running or doing yoga. Everybody has their own, but you teach the children that we are all unique, and they have coping skills that they can use. And they teach parents the same thing, because when you put a child into residential care – or a lot of times they don’t get to stay as long as he did –  but when you put them in, they have a goal in that time which is often 9 months to a year of learning these coping skills, which they then come home and use, and you’ve been learning them also.

Tammy: Right. So in trying to get help for your grandson, what kind of things were either barriers you ran into, or really great successes that helped you? So it sounds like one success was a residential home for him, were there any other things that either were really helpful or didn’t go so well?

Grandmother: One of the barriers was — and many mothers and fathers and even grandparents like myself, don’t know that you cannot take a child to the emergency room and say, “You can’t believe how this kid has been behaving this last month.” That does not count. A child has to have an acute problem to be admitted to the hospital which is often the best place to go, especially if they have a children’s ward for mental illness, because that way they can have their meds adjusted, which is a difficult thing to do at home. The doctor we had took him off of everything, and then slowly added things back which could be dangerous actually. So we were told- and thank God we were told- “Don’t ever go in and say: “You won’t believe how it’s been for the last month.” You have to say, “Yesterday,” –  not even ‘yesterday’- “Today, my son woke up and he is been talking about suicide.” He was only seven actually when he first did this, and he wanted us to die too, because he wanted us to go along with him, he didn’t understand death. When we said, “No, we wouldn’t do that”, and tried to explain death to him, he said, “Well then, I’ll take my cat.” We woke up in the morning and he was quite angry and I went in the back room and he was trying to strangle his cat.

Tammy: Oh, my goodness.

Grandmother: He had been acting up in other ways too. I can’t remember right now what they were but that was a clue that he was saying, “Mom, I’m so suicidal.” So I lied, I called the doctor the next day, because we were completely snowbound and had been for several days, we live in a country and our roads weren’t cleared, there was no way I could get him to the hospital, so we just watched him all day, all night, and then I called the doctor in the morning. That night he was still agitated and he had bit into a light bulb, because he wanted a weapon to fight bad guys with. He though glass would be a good idea. That was another escalation of saying, “Mom, I am really hurting, and I’m really scared, and something has to be done.” So I called the doctor and I said, “He did this and he did that”, and I made it sound like it was simultaneous, and it just happened that moment where it has actually happened the day before. Fortunately, he was young enough not to even know the truth, and so when I’m rattling off to the interviewer at the hospital, they are like, “okay” So I think that’s important for the parents to know, if you want to get help for your child other than outpatient help and which I think it’s vital if your kid has any sort of difficulty: ADHD, Tourettes– any of those things–you need to be under their care of a psychiatrist who understands the medications they are on. But if they need to be hospitalized, you need to know how to do that.

Tammy: You’re right. That’s actually a common story that I hear, and personally have been through as well. If you don’t use exact right words, right? At the exact right time.

Grandmother: You need to know the words.

Tammy:  Thank you. That’s really an important thing to hear. So we ask people as they’re dealing with this –  we understand it changes as you’re going through this, how you are doing changes throughout it –  but at this moment do you feel like you’re swimming, treading water, drowning – where do you feel like you’re at in your journey?

Grandmother: I feel like I just got out and toweled off, because my kid is, today, in a group home, where he has twenty-four hour supervision. He is not healed, but he is able to cope with most situations. He knows what to do when he’s angry, what to do when he’s frustrated. He even tells me sometimes. Maybe my husband and I have words, he’ll say, “Mom and dad, stop that! Use your coping skills.” [laughter] and he’ll guide us. Like, one day I said to my husband, the next day, because sometimes it’s best not to fight in the midst of it, I said, “You know? What you did yesterday really bothered me and I would appreciate it if you would do such and such.” And later after we had this little talk my son (my grandson had been listening) and he said, “Good job, mom.” [laughter] He’s come a long way. We got him when he was six. He’s now eighteen. He first stint in residential care was about nine months. When he was seven. It was very hard to leave him. And maybe it’s even harder for parents as opposed to grandparents, but I knew we couldn’t handle it, I knew he couldn’t handle it. We were in a mix of financial changes in the government, so how we went about it was problematic, but we had it done. We got it done and we got him in there for nine months and he came out a somewhat better person. He went back exactly a year after he had been admitted before and we realized that that time that he was probably cyclical. Some children don’t even know what day of the week it is or what day of the year it is, but his bad time was October. When the leaves fall, when the nights get darker, he had sensory things that said, “This is when I had my bad time when I was little.” So every year –  and it’s gotten much better –  he has had a bad time, actually from October till spring.

Tammy: Is that helpful at all on predicting? I mean, as you were taking care of him through all those years did that help you anticipate those months? Did it help you prepare for that more a little bit, or?

Grandmother: It did. At least we were ready for it. But every year it was less. So we’re prepared for what it was last year and the next year it’s a little bit better. Now I just recently bought, and he has never experienced it, but I bought him, one of those all-spectrum lights, which is supposed to be good for depression –that’s one of the things he suffers from. He has bipolar disorder. He experiences anxiety to a high extent sometimes, and he has just like regular depression as opposed to bipolar, and, a bunch of other [conditions]: attention deficit which is difficult, and he has difficulty learning. But every year gets better, and every year he tries harder, and so we’re looking for the worst and, bam! He’s a little worse, a little crabby, can’t sleep quite as well at night, but it’s no big deal.

Tammy: That’s great. So that’s really encouraging to hear that it can gradually get better each year.

Grandmother: Yeah, it did with him. And I think he will probably have this his whole life, bipolar is hardly ever something that goes away. But you learn what type of bipolar disorder they have and how they react as kids mature, I’ve heard of mothers especially say little girls have more of a problem, because of hormones and self-worth. Our boy got worse in early puberty, but he is such a gentleman now, it’s just—it’s wonderful.

Tammy: We like– we, parents of younger kids, really like to hear these stories. [laughter] I have to tell you. So what is your self-care routine, how do you take care of you when all this stuff that’s going on?

Grandmother: I will have to say I’m bad about that. But one of the things I remember because I also have, experienced depression and anxiety. I went to a psychiatrist and got medication. Mine is the type that I may not have to take it all my life except for one of the antidepressants helps with the pain I have it, from Fibromyalgia, which I think that many autoimmune diseases happen to mothers and grandmothers who are highly stressed. So every once-in-a-while I will make my needs known and say, “Do not wake me up in the morning.” My husband is an early riser, he likes to get up as soon as the sun is up, and sometimes he listens to me and leave me alone. [laughter] Another thing I try to do is do what I enjoy. I belong to a group that does art. I’ve never had an art class in my life. They didn’t have art when I was in school. I went to a parochial school and I won one prize in art and that’s because I picked up the wrong crayon and drew the sky dark blue. So they figured that I must have some inner angst of some sort. [laughter] But I just piddle with it. I love what I call fiber arts because it’s fun to call it an art, whereas it’s just working with thread. I like to knit. crochet, do a little quilting, and every once-in-a-while I’ll see some real arty stuff done with a little bit of yarn and a little bit of something else, and I’ve never done a piece, but I think it’d be fun.

Tammy: Yeah. That be a nice now that you have much more time on your hands, right? [laughter]

Grandmother: Yes, yes.

Tammy:  Wonderful. And, you know, the only way we get through some of this is just by laughing sometimes. What’s your most laughable moment?

Grandmother: My most laughable moments have been with my child, with my grandchild. He’s a funny kid. This one didn’t happen when I was there, but when he had his going away party there were loads of people there, even people who had already quit and gone on to grow in other areas. They said that he had been invited over to another cottage one day, because periodically they give kids a rest from their caregivers and they give their caregivers a rest from the kid, and he had a particular cottage where he liked a lot of the kids and he liked the caregiver. He went over there (and he was no longer doing it but he was aware that kids do) they kick holes in the walls. They do all kinds of stuff that—actually he never did it at home, he did horrible things at home but he never dared to kick a hole – but when he was first there, he probably did it once a week. He went over to this cottage and there was one hole on the wall, and I had hoped that maybe he’d learn a little bit of maintenance and stuff while he watched the people constantly repairing things. [laughter] So he said, “Don’t worry, I’ll fix it.” And he got some card board, and he got some crayons and he taped it all together and he wrote on the thing, “Secret tunnel.”

[laughter]

Tammy: That’s the best one I’ve heard yet. [laughter]

Grandmother: And it’s things like that make me laugh, because he’s so funny. Sometimes even his mental illness is funny, and he’ll say, “Don’t make fun of me, mom.” And I’ll say, “I’m not making fun of you, I’m laughing with you because you are a delightful child.” He’s unusual, he’s different, and we try and praise that in him, that he should be who he is. And he’s a funny kid, he’s an outgoing kid, he’s polite, and let’s not look at the fact that he has trouble learning, he’s a beautiful artist even better than I am [laughter] umand he enjoys doing things for other people.

Tammy: That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. Well, Thank you so much for sharing your story with us, I really appreciate it.

Grandmother: Okay. Thank you.

Speaker: You have been listening to “Just Ask Mom”, recorded and copyrighted in 2017 by Mothers on the Frontline. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is “Olde English” written, performed, and recorded by FlameEmoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to MothersOnTheFronline.com.

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