MOTFL Episode 32: Punitive Frameworks Part I: Conversation Between Friends Series #4

logo: purple lotus flower with white figure inside holding arms up on black background

In this episode we discuss the policy frameworks and philosophical assumptions underneath current punitive systems including policing and schools. (We will continue this discussion next week and look at some promising new frameworks that are currently emerging that could move us beyond a paradigm of coercion and compliance.)

Terminology:

IEP – Individualized Education Plan – the document that determines the accommodations and supports for a particular student in special education.

Ontology – theory of being, framework of what entities exist or how to categorize what exists.

MOTFL Episode 31: Allyship: Moving from Performativity to Authenticity: Conversation Between Friends Series #3

logo: purple lotus flower with white figure inside holding arms up on black background

In this episode we discuss:

  • what it means to be an ally
  • the difference between performative and authentic allyship
  • how allyship differs from friendship and being a coalition partner
  • stigma jumping vs intersectional activism and advocacy

Terms:

Allyship – An active, consistent, and arduous practice of unlearning and re-evaluating, in which a person in a position of privilege and power seeks to operate in solidarity with a marginalized group and works to ensure equality, opportunity and inclusion for everyone. (Thank you to Sonya, Sophie, Gigi and Lilah – students in Dionne Bensonsmith’s “Introduction to Feminism, Gender, and Sexuality” Class in the Fall 2019 at Scripps College – for this definition.)

Intersectionality – A framework for understanding the interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender as they apply to a given individual or group, creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage. (This term was coined by Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989.)

Stigma-Jumping – Avoiding association with potential allies or coalition partners to avoid their stigma being attached to your cause, organization or person. Stigma jumping is a barrier to intersectional activism and advocacy and therefore neglects the most vulnerable. (This term was coined by Tammy Nyden in 2017.)

Resources:

Allyship (Definitions):

Rochester Racial Justice Toolkit “What is Allyship?”

Michelle Kim “Allyship (& Accomplice): The What, the Why, and the How

Seventeen Magazine “What is Performative Allyship?

Teaching Tolerance “Ally or Accomplice: The Language of Activism

On Privilege and Power

University of San Francisco, Gleeson Library “White Privilege Resource Guide

How to be an Ally (start here and by all means, do not stop):

The Anti-Oppression Network “Allyship

Amélie Lamont “Guide to Allyship

Jamie Utt  “So You Call Yourself an Ally: 10 Things All ‘Allies’ Need to Know

Chris Scot Cole “3 Things Not To Do When Someone Discloses Their Invisible Disability

MOTFL Episode 30: “Defunding the Police” Conversations Between Friends #2

a child's drawing a person experienceing panick, with arms waving and distraught face

In this episode we have a conversation about defunding the police:

  • what it means, what it doesn’t mean, and how the phrase raises different emotions in people depending on their personal experiences with the police and racism.
  • How decades of consistent and pervasive defunding of community programming, healthcare, and education has harmed communities. We focus on the effects for children with disabilities.
  • School Resource officers and police brutality in the schools that specifically targets black and brown children and children with disabilities.
  • How policy runs on narratives, not statistics. We discuss and challenge narratives about “bad neighborhoods” and “bad children” that are steeped in anti-black racism, anti-indigeneity, and ableism and have fueled bad policy for decades.

For more information about this topic:

Defunding the police:

Democracy NOW!:  “Defund the Police: Linda Sarsour & Mychal Denzel Smith on What Meaningful Change Would Look Like

USA Today “What does ‘defund the police’ mean and why some say ‘reform’ is not enough

Black Lives Matter

Los Angeles Times “Eliminate school police, L.A. teachers union leaders say

Reading Towward Abolition: A Reading List on Policing, Rebellion, and the Criminalization of Blackness by the Abusable Past.

Resources for teaching and talking about racism:

EdJustice: “Black Lives Matter at School – Resources

Watson, Dyan, Jesse Hagopian, and Wayne Au. Teaching for Black Lives. , 2018. Print.

The Black Lives Matter Syllabus

The School to Prison Pipeline:

Bullies in Blue: The Problem with School Policing [infographic] by the ACLU

Cops and No Counselors: How the Lack of School Mental Health is Harming Students by the ACLU

** The image above was drawn by Akim, a 10 year African American boy expressing his feelings in this current moment of police brutality, racism, and Covid-19.

MOTFL Episode 29: “White Lady Tears” Conversations Between Friends Series #1

In this episode, the founders of Mothers on the Frontline discuss grief, racial privilege, policing, and the performativity of emotion.

Families and communities are grieving right now. We are grieving the deaths of over 100,000 Americans to Covid-19, which has disproportionately affected Black and Brown communities. We are grieving ongoing and countless losses of African-American Women, Men, and non-binary folk, children to elders, to institutional racism, particularly by the very structures that should be protecting them, including the police. Many parents are grieving the loss of the veneer of safety they once felt for themselves and their black and brown children in the community and in their very homes.

Many white allies see the collective grief in the Black community and the pain in the eyes of their Black friends. They want to be helpful, but often fail to recognize their own emotional privilege. We examine how the centering and privileging of white emotion can result in dysfunctional empathy, as well as the weaponization of white lady tears.  

Today’s conversation challenges us to think about how the expression of emotion is learned and responded to very differently between White and Black women and how white emotional privilege in turn affects social narratives, resulting in particular interactions between children, police, and schools which are detrimental to children’s mental health.

If you are interested in learning more about some of the topics mentioned in this podcast we suggest the following:

For information on addressing racism and racist thinking in your personal relationships: Seed the Way “Interrupting Bias: Calling In vs. Calling Out”

A good guide on ACEs and Toxic Stress: Harvard University: Center on the Developing Child “ACEs and Toxic Stress: Frequently Asked Questions”

Mentioned in the Podcast:
DiAngelo, Robin J., White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk about Racism. United States, Beacon Press, 2018.
 
National Domestic Workers Alliance

Kate, A Mother From Iowa

Dirt road in Iowa going off into distance wtth green grasses and trees.

Kate is a mother from Iowa whose children have autism, anxiety, ADHD, sensory processing disorder and prosopagnosia. In this episode, she discusses what it was like when her son was first diagnosed, adjusting each year to new teachers, and what it is like to go through the ups and downs of parenting children who are ‘differently wired’.

Transcription

[music]

Welcome to the Mothers on the Frontline Podcast, episode 28. Mothers on the Frontline is a nonprofit organization, founded and run by mothers of children with mental illness to promote caregiver healing and children’s mental health justice through storytelling. Our vision is a world in which mental health is destigmatized, respected, and prioritized as an integral part of the overall health of individuals, families, and communities. In this episode, we hear from Kate, a mother from Iowa whose children have autism, anxiety, ADHD, sensory processing disorder and prosopagnosia.

Tammy: So hello, tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering, who are you, what do you love, what do you love to do?

Kate: I love yoga. I’m a very fanatic yogi and what has happened with my son has really put me in touch with yoga and with mindfulness so I really like to do that. I like to walk, I like to do gardening and I just, overall, I’m a very positive person, and I like to just have fun.

Tammy: Well that’s wonderful, it’s wonderful. So I want you to pretend you’re talking to parents. What do you want them to know about your experiences? What can you share that may be helpful for them to know?

Kate: So in 2014, my son was officially diagnosed with ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder ODD and anxiety, and we have been going through a struggle which started actually with him in preschool. Where we had seen some of the signs but we weren’t quite sure. He also has allergies, and because of that, he had to be on steroids sometimes. So it was very hard to figure out what is normal two to three-year-old behavior, what is induced by being on steroids and what is behavior that is cause for concern. And at that time too when I would be talking to my parents-in-law, often they would say like, well, you know your husband was just the same when he was little. But then after a while, we were really starting to struggle. It was hard for us sometimes to enjoy weekends. Where you’re looking forward to Monday because it’s so draining, emotionally draining to be around your little guy. And there comes a huge guilt complex with that because you feel like it’s your fault, you’re not doing something right. And after a while, my husband and I, we were just like, we need help. And at the time he was in daycare which also had a preschool tied to it. They were very open to working with us, so we, they said like, we’ll have somebody from Grant Wood AEA come in, evaluate, and then we’ll just see what happens. We did that. There was some cause for concern and then we also, on our own reached out to psychologist and start working with her. And then in 2014, by the year before he went to kindergarten, he got officially diagnosed. So which was for us, a lot of things sort of all the puzzle pieces start to come together. And we were just relieved in a way. But then, on the other hand, it’s like there’s a huge learning curve. Because now it’s like, I know what it is, but what do I need to know? So…

Tammy: Right. So, for parents who are out there who are starting their journey, they haven’t had the diagnosis yet or ones that have just got it. Like what could you talk about in terms of barriers that you have faced that had been hard for you to get your child the help he needs?

Kate: Personally for myself, I think I was the biggest barrier because sometimes you’re in denial and you think like oh it’s just the age. It will be okay. This will, well, will resolve itself down the line but it’s not. So it just, once you come to that realization and also give yourself a break. I think sometimes as parents, we all try to do a really good job but we’re only humans too but we’re really hard on ourselves. And a lot with mental illness diagnosis, there’s a lot of shame I think sometimes connected to it as well.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Kate: So people or parents it holds them back at that shame but it’s okay to ask for help.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Kate: And I think that sometimes that was a barrier for myself. Like I’m always being very independent. I’m a go-getter. I just get things done myself. But there was a point that I reached that I was like I don’t want to live like this. This is not normal. If I’m doing something wrong I need help and I need somebody to let me know, how I need to adjust my parenting style because I want to enjoy the time I spent together with my little guy.

Tammy: You brought up several things that are really important. I mean one is it’s really confusing and you don’t get to have a control. You have a kid, you don’t get to have a scientific control and say okay what really is causing this. Let’s change some variables. No, and especially for those of us who, it’s our only or first child. It can even be, we don’t know what normal is and it’s such a wide range. So it’s hard to know if this is neurotypical development or it’s something we should pay attention to. Is it just quirky or is it something that’s problematic that they need help with. So that’s just hard to know. You also brought up another element which is the shame, right? And so asking for help and the third thing is if your child, there’s something going on, we often have to adapt. So it isn’t that our parenting is wrong, its our parenting is wrong for the child with this neurology.

Katie: Exactly.

Tammy: So there’s no one right way to parent. It depends on the child’s needs. I love that you brought up all that. I just wanted to go back. Oh, yes, I think that’s a really important for us trying to go through it. It gets all mingled up. So I love that. 

Kate: And then there was what I had to like I was going by how I was raised by my mom and dad, and I think they did a superb job, but I was a very easy kid. I will always, I listened, I didn’t fuss a lot and I was also raised and I think a lot of people of our generation are raised like that. If mom and dad ask you something, you do it and that was the hardest for me. Like why is my kid not listening to me? And because of his ODD diagnosis, he’s not as much defiant towards the dad but it’s more towards me. Which is weird too because they always say like they will be less defiant to the authoritative person in the relationship but that’s actually me [laughs] who’s the one that [inaudible]. He’s like yeah if go to mommy and asked her that, I’m not going to get away with that. I’ll just go to dad. [laughs]

Tammy: [laughs] You know but that’s another thing. Just like all kids and all human beings they are different with different people and it can be really, it can hurt our feelings. Like it can be really hard when we’re the ones seeing the symptoms, right? And so that can be really hard and often it could be because we’re the parent they feel safe with or the person they feel safe with in terms of they know they’re not going to not love me if I act up. As opposed to like a stranger, a teacher or something like that. They might hold it in more or something. Yeah. No. It’s really hard. So, same thing. Thinking about parents out there, what has worked really well in getting help for your child? What had been some successes or things you’re like, thank goodness that that happened or is available or–?

Kate: The number one thing for me was first, I had to change myself before I was able to help my son. I had to let go of control. I had to let go of worrying and that goes often with control because you want to know, oh, what’s going to happen then? Well, how is this journey going to be? Is it always going to be like this? And after a while, I just let go of all of that. I’d lived day by day. I take one day at a time. If we sometimes have a bad day, I always say, tomorrow is another day and we start with a clean slate. And I tell my son that as well. For myself too, I let go of emotions because I had such an emotional kid, and he still is but we’ve really worked hard with him on helping gauge his emotions better or that he’s just more aware of them and then he will be able to stop himself. And I think sometimes maturity helps with it as well. But at the time when we were struggling, I would always get like asking put your shoes on. It was like World War III. And it’s the battle you engage and you get worked up and you get upset and you start yelling, which I hate to do or you hear yourself the whole time just saying no, no, you can’t do this because he’s like all over the place. That for me was just letting go of that control and just being aware of that. Like I’m not going to go invest my emotions in that. I’m going to be very patient. I’m just going to take a step back and stay calm. And that has really helped like it’s not always successful.

Tammy: It’s not easy. 

Kate: Sometimes I have to dig really, really, really deep or I’m thinking like, oh, I really want to do this or this and this right now but no, I don’t look good in orange so I’m not going to do that. But then again, that helps me just sometimes to get through it because the sense of humor. Just being aware of like this is a very tough situation and I’m just trying to do my best. And sometimes I can’t do that and I walk away. And I give myself that break then I’m just like I can’t handle this. I just walk away and it’s okay. 

Tammy: It’s not only okay it’s great modeling for your son. 

Kate: I try to. Yeah.

Tammy: And it’s really important for you and me and all mothers and caregivers. It’s wonderful that you’re doing that. But it’s hard. 

Kate: It is hard. It is extremely hard and sometimes you feel like I am on top of the world, I got this down, I like my new parenting style, I become calmer, more patient, I don’t let my emotions get a hold of me that much anymore and other days you’re just like oh, I suck at this. 

Tammy: Right now, it sounds like you’re talking about when it was really rough, but even when things are going well, we recognize, they change from moment to moment and so we like to ask right now, do you feel like you’re swimming, drowning, treading water, where are you at right now?

Kate: I feel like I’m swimming but I also know due to his ADHD and his ODD, especially at the beginning of the school year can be quite challenging. He knows the principal, he knows his special ed. teacher but it’s always like he has a new teacher. So he tries to kind of figure out like what can I get away with and this is where the behavioral issues like the defiance will come in. He doesn’t want to do his math which he’s really good at but he has a love-hate relationship with it. And he’s just trying to testing the waters so I know maybe by next week, the week after that, we’re going to hit that wall where they’re going to say well, he did this today and he did that today and then after a while, by October, November, he’ll be like, no, the teacher, she sticks to her guns. I can’t manipulate her. I’ll just comply. I’ll just do my math. I’m good but I always am aware of that. Like last year, we hit a wall again to where his medication that he was on for his anxiety was not working anymore. So we really saw, because he was older, so we had to switch medications.

Tammy: Which happens a lot when kids are developing. 

Kate: Yes, exactly because the current dose like what he was on was no longer working and we just saw certain behaviors reappear again that we were like, oh, we thought we were done with this. But then we were aware of that and then we informed the school about it. We said we’re going to go to the psychiatrist. We’re going to explain this and probably we’ll switch medications, which happened but then most of his medications, it takes about at least four to six weeks so we communicate that to the school. Then it was like “hang in there, we know it’s rough. We’re with you because what you’re experiencing in school, we’re experiencing at home,” but then the medication started to work and he’s been doing great. So I know down the line, we will always hit rough patches but I’m aware of that. It’s almost like an expectation that I know like, yeah, we’ll go there.

Tammy: Let’s talk about that a minute because I think that’s really important. It seems to me a common thing, I know in my own experience when I talk to other mothers and other caregivers. The first time is devastating, when you first have symptoms erupt and then things happen  – maybe a therapy, maybe a medication, things seem to do a little better and then things happen again and that seems to me the most devastating because you first thought we’ve knocked this like we have this imagination–

Kate: We got this down.

Tammy: — we solved it.

Kate: Yeah. We solved it. [laughs]

Tammy: Like it’s cured. No. And so but then there’s a kind of confidence that comes with going through a few cycles knowing you can do this. You got it. It’s hard but you got through in the past. You’ll get through again. Take it a day at a time. That’s how you do it so I think that’s a really important thing for people to hear who are just having the first time or what I think is even harder is that second time things start to get rough. To know it will ebb and flow and you’re okay, you’re gonna be okay. 

Kate: Yeah. Exactly. And it was how you described it. That’s exactly how it is because I think even if you get a diagnosis in a way you have the expectations. You’re like I know it’s really rough right now but later on, they will be okay and all of this is just magically going to go away. No, it’s not. It’s just going to be a day they become older. A lot of again, maturity helps a lot with some of the disabilities that my son has  – but my husband actually got diagnosed a year afterwards because he said, well, I’ve been having a lot of these struggles that I see in our little guy now. And a lot of the behaviors I was like that when I was little. So I think I’m going to get myself tested as well. So he has ADHD as well but it was a good thing. It was kind of knowing like and for him especially, going on medication, that helps so much.

Tammy: And this is another common thing. It happens for a lot of parents because there’s a lot of genetic passing down many of these conditions and our generation and generations before us didn’t have the knowledge and the outreach on this issues so I know many people who are getting diagnosed after their kids are do. It can help everybody so much. So that’s really wonderful that happened.

Kate: For us, it’s been a real, a real positive like you go through that, you sat on that journey and then you were like a lot of things and especially for my husband, a lot of things started to make sense in his world as well then. And then some of it was a little bit grief knowing that I remember when he went the first day on his medication, by noon, he said like I’ll never forget it. “Wow, is this what it feels like to be normal?” And then the second thing that he said was, ”I wish I would have had this medication when I was in college.” And that to me just showed how much of a struggle it can be and that explains also the stigma that is still on mental disabilities because often people, they will look at a person, they’re like, well, I don’t see anything wrong with them.

Tammy: Invisible disabilities are tough. 

Kate: It’s really tough and then there’s the behavioral issues and then kids start to act out but then if you don’t understand the disability like people are well, why are they doing this wrong? It’s okay. It’s normal because I always say, there’s a lady that actually wrote a book this year which I’m a big fan of and I would strongly recommend to parents, especially to moms to read it. It’s Differently Wired: Raising An Exceptional Child in a Conventional World. It’s by Deborah Reber. And she calls her kid ‘differently wired’.

Tammy: I like that.

Kate: And I call my kid ‘differently wired’ too or an ‘atypical kid’. It’s like they’re just a little bit differently wired. Their brains make a little bit, there’s different connections in there but overall, they’re still good kids. They’re fun kids. Because I think sometimes there are so much attention is being given to their negative behaviors and these kids so much need to positive reinforcement. They need it so much more than your regular wired kid. 

Tammy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that’s true and also sometimes, the differently wired comes with benefits that we don’t talk about enough too. I think that’s one the things as well. So we’ve been talking a lot about your journey with your child but what is your self-care routine or if more appropriate ‘survival technique’? I know you mentioned yoga and mindfulness which are so key I’m sure. So do you want to talk a little bit more about that? How does that help you or are there things you do to sort of take care of you?

Kate: Sometimes it’s easier than other times. I feel sometimes when things are going really good, you’re very motivated to go to yoga class and being mindful, but I know there’s one year more like in the survival awareness or survival mode. It’s like I’m tired. I don’t want to go do this. No, I don’t feel happy right now. I don’t want to go to a yoga class  – but for me, if I’m aware of it and I can have that conversation with myself then I push myself to yes, you got to leave everything right now because you talking to yourself or having this little mind games going on, that means you need to get your butt to yoga and go relax for an hour and then usually, by the end of that class, I’m like, oh, I so needed this. [laughs]

Tammy: I’m me again. [laughs]

Kate: And for me also, I have great friends. They understand. They’re part of my gang. They don’t judge and sometimes when I’m struggling because at sometimes you don’t want to necessarily talk to your husband because their going through the same thing. You’re talking about it but you always need that perspective. You always need to talk to other people that have gone through the same experiences or understand and that really helps like when I’m sometimes struggling and I’m like, oh, what am I doing wrong? Or not just that. You just hit a rough spot again. I just I’m like okay, we’re going to have breakfast. Get together with my friends and then after a two-hour talk, I’m like, I got this. 

Tammy: That’s a really good point because as you said it changes and I know with my own sisterhood of friends, right? We’ve been lucky that we’re not all crashing at the exact same moment somehow. I don’t know how that works out. It’s only happened once where we’re all like oh, no, what do we do? We’re all drowning right now but so you’re right. Because if you’re talking to someone like a spouse, a partner, even a mother or father, if they’re helping you take care of your children, if they’re involved with it and they’re going through the same thing at the same moment, they’re going through it too. So having that outside group that understands is so helpful to have that support and I think that’s right. So we like to end with this question. And we feel like anyone raising kids, this has nothing to do with neurotypical or not. There are some funny things those kids have done or that have happened in our lives that make us smile. So we like to ask, what is your most laughable moment when you think about your experience with your son? Anything that makes you smile or–?

Kate: He just makes me, he’s got a great sense of humor. I’m always so surprised because sometimes you get so much negative feedback what goes on in school and the school he goes to, they’re really great about also they celebrate the good things and we tell them to please don’t only you tell us when things are going wrong. We need to hear it when he is doing great because at school, they make a big deal about it and we make a big deal about it at home too. And usually, it’s a sense of humor. He will say this, I can’t quite recall thing but he’s just funny. There’s one thing, yeah. When he was little, I have a friend and she’s called Mary and she would come and babysit him at times just when we wanted to go get a break or, and she was very understanding. She was unjudging or anything and he knew how to handle him. And then one time, I was like yeah, Mary is coming a later on and he’s like Mary? He’s like, my Mary? And I’m like, yeah, and he looked at me very seriously and he’s like well, you need to get your own Mary. 

Tammy: [laughs] I love it.

Kate: And I’m like, okay. 

Tammy: No sharing Mary. [laughs]

Kate: No. 

Tammy: That’s great. Well, I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us and share your story and really appreciate hearing about it and how you and your family are doing. So thank you.

Kate: Thank you for giving me the opportunity. 

Tammy: Thanks. 

[music]

Thank you for listening to the Mothers on the Frontline Podcast, copyrighted in 2019. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is “Olde English”, written and performed by Flame Emoji. For more podcasts related to children’s mental health go to MothersOnTheFrontline.com or subscribe to Mothers on the Frontline on ITunes, Android, Google Play, Stitcher, and Spotify. If you would like to support our work, please make a tax-deductible donation on our website – again, it is MothersOnTheFrontline.com – that is one word – MothersOnTheFrontline.

[music]

Definitions of terms or acronyms used in this interview:

AEA – Area Education Agency – A regional education service agency created by Iowa Code to provide education services to public school districts and nonpublic schools within the AEA’s geographic boundaries. They provide many services, including special educations support.

Book recommendation in this interview:

It’s Differently Wired: Raising An Exceptional Child in a Conventional World.  by Deborah Reber.

Every Child Deserves a Miss Honey

As a child one of my favorite books was Roald Dahl’s Matilda.  Having dyscalculia, I related to how Matilda was often misunderstood and looked at as “odd” by her family and classmates.  Like Matilda my mind would also wander, I imagined myself on grand adventures, solving problems, being a hero to my friends and defending myself against class bullies. 

In second grade I took my first standardized test. I remember flying through the reading comprehension and writing sections on the first day but once we got to the math portion on the second day, I hit a wall, I was not able to complete the test past the second page.  When we got the results, the discrepancy between reading/comprehension and math reasoning was so large that they made me retake the test three times, and three times I produced the same result.  Not knowing what to do with me, I was placed in the back of the class – with reading material and given worksheets for math so that I could “follow along with the class at my own pace.” Without remediation for math the worksheets made no sense, but I quickly learned that my teachers (grades 2-4) would not bother me if I read quietly.  I didn’t want to do math and when anyone – teacher or my mom – tried to force me to do math problems, I would become angry and resistive. This behavior garnered me the reputation of being oppositional and lazy.

It was not until the 5th grade that I met my Miss Honey.  As accidental luck would have it the fifth-grade class for Indianapolis School #43 was exceptionally small, so small in fact that the school decided to combine 4/5th and 5/6th grade classes.  For a child with undiagnosed dyscalculia this could have been the beginning of the end (children with learning disabilities are three times more likely to drop out of school than those without learning disabilities).  Luckily for me I had a teacher who, for the first time in my elementary school years, saw me.  Mrs. S  noticed that, although I did not and could not perform basic math tasks such as simple addition, fractions, and telling time, I WAS reading books of all varieties, science, non-fictions, history, and lots of them.  In the two years between testing and entering 5th grade my reading and comprehension skills had only increased. It was not uncommon for me to raid my mother’s bookshelf and I frequently asked her to check adult books from the library so that I could read.  Like Matilda’s Miss Honey, my 5th grade teacher began talking to me during break times, we often had lunch together where we would talk, I also stayed after to school with her where she would tutor me – quietly and painfully in math. When she noticed that I could complete some math tasks if I used my fingers to count (which was forbidden for 5th graders) she devised a “safe” way for me to count using my fingers and the shapes of the numbers.  (Safe in that the math teacher would not see me counting with my fingers and give me an “F”.) She gave me extra time for test and arranged for me to take my standardized test in the library un-timed instead of with my classmates.  When the school wanted to move me to a separate behavioral school because I was falling behind and acting out, Mrs. S called my mother and helped her to complete the appropriate steps so that I could attend RTI (Response to Intervention) classes twice a week for math but remain at my home school. This was 1982 a full 8 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act came into effect, so there was no 504 or IEP, there were no guidelines for teaching and accommodating children with learning disabilities. To this day I have no idea how they managed, but Mrs. S– with the help of my mother – managed to come up with a set of accommodations that would see me through middle school, high school and college. Like Miss Honey from Matilida, my Miss Honey became my biggest champion at school, my best interpreter, and my most important guide.  She helped me understand my disability and then helped me find ways to incorporate that knowledge so that I could better navigate through school and through life. It helped me navigate through graduate school, to a Ph.D. and to my current job as a professor. Every child deserves a Miss Honey and we at Mothers on the Frontline would like to give a heartfelt “thank you” to all the Miss Honey’s working to improve the experience of our children at school.

Raising a child with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Anxiety

logo: purple lotus flower with white figure inside holding arms up on black background

[music]

Welcome to Mothers on the Frontline Podcast. Today, as part of our Just Ask Mom Series,we listen to a Mom of a 9 year old diagnosed with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Anxiety in 2014.

[music]

Tammy: Tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering, who are you, what do you love, what do you love to do?

Mom: I love yoga. I’m a very fanatic yogi and what has happened with my son has really put me in touch with yoga and with mindfulness so I really like to do that. I like to walk, I like to do gardening and I just overall, am a very positive person, and I like to just have fun.

Tammy: Well that’s wonderful, it’s wonderful. So I want you to pretend you’re talking to parents. What do you want them to know about your experiences? What can you share that may be helpful for them to know?

Mom: So in 2014, my son was officially diagnosed with ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder ODD and anxiety, and we have been going through a struggle which started actually with him in preschool. Where we had seen some of the signs but we weren’t quite sure.He also has allergies, and because of that, he had to be on steroids sometimes.So it was very hard to figure out what is normal to 3-year-old behavior, what is induced by being on steroids and what is behavior that is cause for concern.And at that time too when I would be talking to my parents-in-law, often they would say like, well, you know your husband was just the same when he was little. But then after a while, we were really starting to struggle. It was hard for us sometimes to enjoy weekends. Where you’re looking forward to Monday because it’s so draining, emotionally draining to be around your little guy.And there comes a huge guilt complex with that because you feel like it’s your fault, you’re not doing something right. And after a while, my husband and I,we were just like, we need help. And at the time he was in daycare which also had a preschool tied to it. They were very open to working with us, so we, theysaid like, we’ll have somebody from the AEA [Area Education Agency] come in, evaluate, and then we’ll just see what happens. We did that. There was some cause for concern and then we also, on our own reached out to psychologist and start working with her. And then in 2014, by the year before he went to kindergarten, he got officially diagnosed. So which was for us, a lot of things sort of all the puzzle pieces start to come together. And we were just relieved in a way. But then, on the other hand, it’s like there’s a huge learning curve. Because now it’s like, I know what it is, but what do I need to know? So…

Tammy: Right. So, for parents who are out there who are starting their journey, they haven’t had the diagnosis yet or ones that have just got it. Like what could you talk about in terms of barriers that you have faced that had been hard for you to get your child the help he needs?

Mom: Personally for myself, I think I was the biggest barrier because sometimes you’re in denial and you think like oh it’s just the age. It will be okay. This will, well, will resolve itself down the line but it’s not. So it just, once you come to that realization and also give yourself a break. I think sometimes as parents,we all try to do a really good job but we’re only humans too but we’re really hard on ourselves. And a lot with mental illness diagnosis, there’s a lot of shame I think sometimes connected to it as well.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Mom:So people or parents it holds them back at that shame but it’s okay to ask for help.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Mom: And I think that sometimes that was a barrier for myself. Like I’m always being very independent. I’m a go-getter. I just get things done myself. But there was a point that I reach that I was like I don’t want to live like this. This is not normal. If I’m doing something wrong I need help and I need somebody to let me know, how I need to adjust my parenting style because I want to enjoy the time I spent together with my little guy.

Tammy: You brought up several things that are really important. I mean one is it’s really confusing and you don’t get to have a control. You have a kid, you don’t get to have a scientific control and say okay what really is causing this. Let’s change some variables.No, and especially for those of us who, it’s our only or first child. It can even be, we don’t know what normal is and it’s such a wide range. So it’s hard to know if this is neurotypical development or it’s something we should pay attention to. Is it just quirky or is it something that’s problematic that they need help with. So that’s just hard to know. You also brought up another element which is the shame, right? And so asking for help and the third thing is if your child, there’s something going on, we often have to adapt. So it isn’t that our parenting is wrong, it’s our parenting is wrong for the child with this neurology.

Mom: Exactly.

Tammy: So there’s no one right way to parent. It depends on the child’s needs. I love that you brought up all that. I just wanted to go back over that because I think that’s a really important for us trying to go through it. It gets all mingled up. So I love that. 

Mom: And that was what I had too. I was going by how I was raised by my mom and dad, and I think they did a superb job, but I was a very easy kid. I will always, I listened, I didn’t fuss a lot and I was also raised and I think a lot of people of our generation are raised like that. If mom and dad ask you something, you do it and that was the hardest for me. Like why is my kid not listening to me? And because of his ODD diagnosis, he’s not as much defiant towards the dad but it’s more towards me.Which is weird too because they always say like they will be less defiant to the authoritative person in the relationship but that’s actually me [laughs] who’s the one that [inaudible]. He’s like yeah if go to mommy and asked her that, I’m not going to get away with that. I’ll just go to dad. [laughs]

Tammy: [laughs] You know but that’s another thing. Just like all kids and all human beings they are different with different people and it can be really, it can hurt our feelings.Like it can be really hard when we’re the ones seeing the symptoms, right? And so that can be really hard and often it could be because we’re the parent they feel safe with or the person they feel safe with in terms of they know they’re not going to not love me if I act up. As opposed to like a stranger, a teacher or something like that. They might hold it in more or something. Yeah. No. It’s really hard. So, same thing. Thinking about parents out there, what has worked really well in getting help for your child? What had been some successes or things you’re like, thank goodness that that happened or is available or–?

Mom: The number one thing for me was first, I had to change myself before I was able to help my son. I had to let goof control. I had to let go of worrying and that goes often with control because you want to know, oh, what’s going to happen then? Well, how is this journey going to be? Is it always going to be like this? And after a while, I just let go of all of that. I’d lived day by day. I take one day at a time. If we sometimes have a bad day, I always say, tomorrow is another day and we start with a clean slate. And I tell my son that as well. For myself too, I let go of emotions because I had such an emotional kid, and he still is but we’ve really worked hard with him on helping gauge his emotions better or that he’s just more aware of them and then he will be able to stop himself. And I think sometimes maturity helps with it as well. But at the time when we were struggling, I would always get like asking put your shoes on. It was like World War III. And it’s the battle you engage and you get worked up and you get upset and you start yelling which I hate to do or you hear yourself the whole time just saying no, no, you can’t do this because he’s like all over the place.That for me was just letting go of that control and just being aware of that.Like I’m not going to go invest my emotions in that. I’m going to be very patient. I’m just going to take a step back and stay calm. And that has really helped like it’s not always successful.

Tammy: It’s not easy. 

Mom: Sometimes I have to dig really,really, really deep or I’m thinking like, oh, I really want to do this or this and this right now but no, I don’t look good in orange so I’m not going to do that. But then again, that helps me just sometimes to get through it because the sense of humor. Just being aware of like this is a very tough situation and I’m just trying to do my best. And sometimes I can’t do that and I walk away.And I give myself that break then I’m just like I can’t handle this. I just walk away and it’s okay. 

Tammy: It’s not only okay it’s great modeling for your son. 

Mom: I try to. Yeah.

Tammy: And it’s really important for you and me and all mothers and caregivers. It’s wonderful that you’re doing that. But it’s hard. 

Mom: It is hard. It is extremely hard and sometimes you feel like I am on top of the world, I got this down, I like my new parenting style, I become calmer, more patient, I don’t let my emotions get a hold of me that much anymore and other days you’re just like oh,I suck at this. 

Tammy: Right now, it sounds like you’re talking about when it was really rough, but even when things are going well, we recognize, they change from moment to moment and so we like to ask right now, do you feel like you’re swimming, drowning, treading water, where are you at right now?

Mom: I feel like I’m swimming but I also know due to his ADHD and his ODD, especially at the beginning of the school year can be quite challenging. He knows the principal, he knows his special ed teacher but it’s always like he has a new teacher. So he tries to kind of figure out like what can I get away with and this is where the behavioral issues like the defiance will come in. He doesn’t want to do his math which he’s really good at but he has a love-hate relationship with it. And he’s just trying to testing the waters so I know maybe by next week, the week after that, we’re going to hit that wall where they’re going to say well, he did this today and he did that today and then after a while, by October,November, he’ll be like, no, the teacher, she sticks to her guns. I can’t manipulate her. I’ll just comply. I’ll just do my math. I’m good but I always am aware of that. Like last year, we hit a wall again to where his medication that he was on for his anxiety was not working anymore. So we really saw, because he was older, so we had to switch medications.

Tammy: Which happens a lot when kids are developing. 

Mom: Yes, exactly because the current dose like what he was on was no longer working and we just saw certain behaviors reappear again that we were like, oh, we thought we were done with this. But then we were aware of that and then we informed the school about it.We said we’re going to go to the psychiatrist. We’re going to explain this and probably we’ll switch medications which happened but then most of his medications, it takes about at least four to six weeks so we communicate that to the school. That was like hang in there. We know it’s rough. We’re with you because what you’re experiencing in school, we’re experiencing at home but then the medication started to work and he’s been doing great. So I know down the line, we will always hit rough patches but I’m aware of that. It’s almost like an expectation that I know like, yeah, we’ll go there.

Tammy: Let’s talk about that a minute because I think that’s really important. It seems to me a common thing, I know in my own experience when I talk to other mothers and other caregivers. The first time is devastating when you first have symptoms and then things happen maybe a therapy, maybe a medication, things seem to do a little better and then things happen again and that seems to me the most devastating because you first thought we’ve knocked this like we have this imagination–

Mom: We got this down.

Tammy: — we solved it.

Mom: Yeah. We solved it. [laughs]

Tammy: Like it’s cured. No. And so but then there’s a kind of confidence that comes with going through a few cycles knowing you can do this. You got it. It’s hard but you got through in the past. You’ll get through again. Take it a day at a time. That’s how you doit so I think that’s a really important thing for people to hear who are just having the first time or what I think is even harder is that second time things start to get rough. To know it will ebb and flow and you’re okay, you’re gonna be okay. 

Mom: Yeah. Exactly. And it was how you described it. That’s exactly how it is because I think even if you get a diagnosis in a way you have the expectations. You’re like I know it’s really rough right now but later on, they will be okay and all of this is just magically going to go away. No, it’s not. It’s just going to be a day they become older. A lot of again, maturity helps a lot with some of the disabilities that my son has but my husband actually got diagnosed a year afterwards because he said, well, I’ve been having a lot of these struggles that I seen in our little guy. And a lot of the behaviors I was like that when I was little. So I think I’m going to get myself tested as well. So he has ADHD as well but it was a good thing. It was kind of knowing like and for him especially, going on medication, that helps so much.

Tammy: And this is another common thing. It happens for a lot of parents because there’s a lot of genetic passing down many of this conditions and our generation and generations before us didn’t have the knowledge and the outreach on these issues so I know many people who are getting diagnosed after their kids are doing it. It can help everybody so much. So that’s really wonderful that happened.

Mom: For us, it’s been a real, areal positive like you go through that, you sat on that journey and then you were like a lot of things and especially for my husband, a lot of things started to make sense in his world as well then. And then some of it was a little bit grief knowing that I remember when he went the first day on his medication, by noon, he said like I’ll never forget it. Wow, is this what it feels like to be normal? And then the second thing that he said was, I wish I would have had this medication when I was in college. And that to me just showed how much of a struggle it can be and that explains also the stigma that is still on mental disabilities because often people, they will look at a person, they’re like, well, I don’t see anything wrong with them.

Tammy: Invisible disabilities are tough. 

Mom: It’s really tough and then there’s the behavioral issues and then kids start to act out but then if you don’t understand the disability like people are well, why are they doing this wrong? It’s okay. It’s normal because I always say, there’s a lady that actually wrote a book this year which I’m a big fan of and I would strongly recommend to parents, especially to moms to read it. It’s Differently Wired:Raising An Exceptional Child in a Conventional World. It’s by Deborah Reber. And she calls her kid differently wired.

Tammy: I like that.

Mom: And I call my kid differently wired too or an atypical kid. It’s like they’re just a little bit differently wired. Their brains make a little bit, there’s different connections in there but overall, they’re still good kids. They’re fun kids. Because I think sometimes there are so much attention is being given to their negative behaviors and these kids so much need to positive reinforcement. They needed so much more than your regular wired kid. 

 Tammy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And Ithink that’s true and also sometimes, the differently wired comes with benefits that we don’t talk about enough too. I think that’s one the things as well. Sowe’ve been talking a lot about your journey with your child but what is yourself-care routine or more appropriate survival technique? I know you mentioned yoga and mindfulness which are so key I’m sure. So do you want to talk a little bit more about that? How does that help you or are there things you do to sort of take care of you?

 Mom: Sometimes it’s easier thanother times. I feel sometimes when things are going really good, you’re very motivated to go to yoga class and being mindful but I notice when there is survival awareness or survival mode. It’s like I’m tired. I don’t want to go do this.No, I don’t feel happy right now. I don’t want to go to a yoga class but for me, if I’m aware of it and I can have that conversation with myself then I push myself to yes, you got to leave everything right now because you talking to yourself or having this little mind games going on, that means you need to get your butt to yoga and go relax for an hour and then usually, by the end of that class, I’m like, oh, I so needed this. [laughs]

Tammy: I’m me again. [laughs]

 Mom: And for me also, I have greatfriends. They understand. They’re part of my gang. They don’t judge and sometimes when I’m struggling because at sometimes you don’t want to necessarily talk to your husband because you’re going through the same thing.You’re talking about it but you always need that perspective. You always need to talk to other people that have gone through the same experiences or understands and that really helps like when I’m sometimes struggling and I’m like, oh, what am I doing wrong? Or not just that. You just hit a rough spot again. I just I’m like okay, we’re going to have breakfast. Get together with my friends and then after a two-hour talk, I’m like, I got this. 

Tammy: That’s a really good point because as you said it changes and I know with my own sisterhood of friends,right? We’ve been lucky that we’re not all crashing at the exact same moment somehow. I don’t know how that works out. It’s only happened once where we’re all like oh, no, what do we do? We’re all drowning right now but so you’re right. Because if you’re talking to someone like a spouse, a partner, even a mother or father, if they’re helping you take care of your children, if they’re involved with it and they’re going through the same thing at the same moment,they’re going through it too. So having that outside group that understands is so helpful to have that support and I think that’s right. So we like to end with this question. And we feel like anyone raising kids, this has nothing to do with neurotypical or not. There are some funny things those kids have done or that have happened in our lives that make us smile. So we like to ask, what is your most laughable moment when you think about your experience with your son? Anything that makes you smile or–?

Mom: He just makes me, he’s got a great sense of humor. I’m always so surprised because sometimes you get so much negative feedback what goes on in school and the school he goes to, they’re really great about also they celebrate the good things and we tell them to please don’t only you tell us when things are going wrong. We need to hear it when he is doing great because at school, they make a big deal about it and we make a big deal about it at home too. And usually, it’s a sense of humor. He will say this, I can’t quite recall thing but he’s just funny. There’s one thing, yeah. When he was little, I have a friend and she’s called Mary and she would come and babysit him at times just when we wanted to go get a break or,and she was very understanding. She was unjudging or anything and he knew howto handle him. And then one time, I was like yeah, Mary is coming a later on and he’s like Mary? He’s like, my Mary? And I’m like, yeah, and he looked at me very seriously and he’s like well, you need to get your own Mary. 

Tammy:

[laughs]

I love it.

Mom: And I’m like, okay. 

Tammy: No sharing Mary. [laughs]

Mom: No. 

Tammy: That’s great. Well, I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us and share your story and really appreciate hearing about it and how you and your family are doing. So thank you.

Mom: Thank you for giving me the opportunity. 

Tammy: Thanks. 

[music]

You have been listening to the  “Just Ask Mom” series, part of the Mothers on the Frontline Podcast, copyrighted in 2018.Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is “Olde English”, written,performed, and recorded by FlameEmoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to MothersOnTheFrontline.com or subscribe to “Mothers on the Frontline” on ITunes, Android, Google Play,Sticher, and Spotify. Mothers on the Frontline is a non-profit 501 (c)(3)organization that uses storytelling for caregiver healing and children’s mental health advocacy. We strive to reduce stigma, educate the public, and influence positive policy change through our podcast series and storytelling workshops.We are currently working with Grinnell College to document and archive stories of lived experience with the school to prison pipeline, an issue importantly connected to children’s mental health and wellbeing. If you would like to support our work, please visit our website and make a tax deductible donation at mothersonthefrontline.com.

[music]

Five Ways to Fill Your Cup

 

In thinking about National Family Caregiver Month, I was reminded of a previous Mothers on the Frontline podcast episode in the Just Ask Mom series, called “Filling up your Cup”. In it Alissa explained the phrase, “my cup runneth over” in a way I needed to hear as a caregiver. “What runneth over is for me to give you, what is in my cup is for me.” She continued: “I have to do my best to keep my own cup full or I’ve got nothing to offer – to my children, to others, to advocacy, to change – I got to do my best to keep myself whole and intact as well, or it does no one any good.” This idea is at the very heart of our work at Mothers on the Frontline, not because we live it, but because we aspire to.

Sometimes when loving and caring for someone with mental illness, it feels like there are holes at the bottom of our cup. During the holiday season, when we are barraged with images of happy families and tranquil moments of joy, those holes can feel vast. There are the practical challenges that use up our ‘juice’: finding care and services, navigating health and school systems not set up to help children like ours. There is the loneliness and isolation that stigma and discrimination places on the child, caregivers, and siblings – more spilled juice. But perhaps the most draining are the cruel comments that come from our child when they are ill and the cruel comments that come from others about our child or family who do not understand what is going on. It can leave us feeling pretty empty, and this emptiness can feel magnified during the “season of giving”.

So what are we to do? In this age when “self-care” has become a marketing slogan for spa packages and beauty products, what does it really mean to care for and love oneself, especially when one’s life is structured around caring for a person with a serious mental health condition? What “self-care” is really available to all of us, no matter our financial situation or the current level of crisis we navigate. In this podcast episode, Alissa mentions five things we can all do:

  1. Take a deep breath. Breathe out all that you are holding in. Breathe in life and self-love.
  2. Know “this too shall pass”. Whatever crisis is presenting, it is temporary. I would add that so too are good days -and so here is permission to fully enjoy those good days when they come. They are not times to merely catch up and get things done in preparation for the next crisis. We get overwhelmed by an imagined future laid out in front of us, but the moment at hand is manageable. Stay there and keep breathing.
  3. Physical exercise. If you are like me, this can be a real challenge. Try to find something doable and enjoyable for you. Whether it is light stretching, a walk outside, etc. Find something that is realistic for you and that feels good. This is not about looking good or fitting into that certain pair of jeans. This is about feeling good in and loving your own body – supporting it so it can support you.
  4. Taking care of your own mental health needs. We live in community with our families and those under our care. We affect and are affected by each other. There has been significant research into how a mother’s depression or anxiety can affect her child. Recently, researchers are finally starting to ask how a child’s mental health condition can affect their mother’s health. (See this article.) If you can benefit from therapy, medication, support groups, etc., give that gift to yourself. It does not matter whether your mental health needs predate your care giving or were brought about from stresses and traumas associated with care giving: you deserve the support you need to be well.
  5. “I am on the list too.” In our long to-do lists as caregivers, Alissa reminds us that we are on the list too. This means being intentional about filling our cup. I would like to add that how we do so will depend on our situation and we need to be flexible as our situation changes. But that does NOT mean taking ourselves off the list. Ask, “what can I do for me in this situation?” For me right now it is waking up 30 minutes earlier so I can journal and drink a cup of coffee while it is still hot before my boys wake up. (Seriously, as a mom, drinking a warm drink while it is still hot is a big deal!) This simple thing is not possible in those situations when my son does not sleep due to mania. Then I have to find something else – maybe it is using respite services for an hour so I can drink a hot cup of tea undisturbed at a coffee shop or with a friend.  For years while we were on a waiting list for services, there was no respite – then I might have used the brief moments when I took my shower to breathe deeply and intentionally – that might have been all that was available to me. But it was still something that made a difference. All too often, when the situation changed making my previous self-care impossible, I just dropped it, taking myself off the list completely and it always results in an empty cup. This November, let each of us commit to filling our cup, in whatever ways we can, so that it runneth over, nourishing ourselves, our families and our communities.

And if there is a caregiver in your life, in this season of giving, there is no greater gift than helping another fill their cup. Whether it is being present with them in their pain, sending a kind note, or doing what you can to provide them a few minutes to drink their cup while it is still warm, magically that small act (which does not cost a dime) can fill their cup to overflowing.

Listen to Alissa’s full interview on the Mothers on the Frontline Podcast: Just Ask Mom Series, episode 7.

 

 

You are everybody you’ve ever been, Just Ask Mom Series episode 19

logo: purple lotus flower with white figure inside holding arms up on black background

In this episode, Diana shares her experience mothering a 17 year old daughter with anxiety and depression.

Mentioned on this episode:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness: https://www.nami.org/

Transcription

[music in background]

Voiceover: Welcome to the Just Ask Mom podcast where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illness. Just Ask Mom is a mother’s on the frontline production. Today we will listen to Diana, an Iowa parent with a 17-year-old daughter with anxiety and depression.

Tammy: Tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering. What are your passions? Who are you? What do you love?

Diana: Well, I enjoy biking and taking long bike rides, not competitively or anything but just kind of peddling along. I enjoy yoga and take some time for that when I can, and I enjoy writing.

Tammy: Wonderful. Do you like creative writing, journaling, what kind of stuff do you do?

Diana: All of that. I used to write for the newspaper when I’m just column and just kind of a life in the day of life and of mom, and that was fine.

Tammy: That’s wonderful, it’s great. I want you to pretend that you’re talking to people who just haven’t had any direct experience with mental illness –   whether in their own life or anyone else in their direct family or friends- they just haven’t had to deal with it. What would you like them to know about your experience?

Diana: What I would like them to know beyond just my experience and just in general but particularly with me if you see me, is that it isn’t always what you think it is and it doesn’t always look how you think it’s supposed to look. Please don’t make the assumption that we might be wrong or dramatic or overreacting, and I know it might seem like that at times, but please just put compassion first and really trust that somebody who is living a situation particularly with their own child, their own family member. They are the expert and if they say something that doesn’t really make sense to you based on what you observe of that child or that person, please just be compassionate and believe that there’s probably a lot going on under the surface or things that you don’t understand about it, and appreciate their honesty and being able to share.

Tammy: Absolutely. Can you think of examples of where people have just not seen –  like they see it one way but something else is going on  – so that you just wish you could just sort of scream?

Diana: Every day.

[laughter]

Diana: Every day. An example that comes to mind is a parent-teacher conference in which I was trying once again to gently and with a friendly face remind teachers that my daughter has a 504 plan, and that she has these accommodations and that they’re legally required to provide those to her. We were having a little difficulty and the teacher said, “Well, I just don’t think she’s anxious, I mean I don’t see it. I don’t think she has anxiety, frankly”, which is kind of a classic example. I actually appreciate the candor that that teacher showed because there are other people who are more passive about it but they certainly seem to be indicating that maybe my hyper-vigilance is causing anxiety. That’s tough to take, it’s a little insulting. There are people who sell my daughter short and kind of limit her based on, “Well if she’s really anxious then maybe she should just do this and not even try this other thing”.

Tammy: I think it’s a really good point because mental illness is portrayed a certain way in the media and movies and all this kind of thing. The assumption is you could see and know what is going on with someone, but someone could be going through a whole lot and look fine on the outside sometimes, or at least be able to do that for a small amount of time whether at school, at work or what have it. Right? It would be easy for someone to not notice because they’re not living with it day to day.

Diana: Right. I think that my daughter is very much like that. I think that girls, in general, are designed with being a people pleaser in mind more often, and so you might not see what you think you’re supposed to see if somebody has mental illness. I will see and hear all about it –  let me assure you  – when the wheels come off the bus later when they’re at home which is their safe space and you know which is that.

Tammy: Talk about that because that’s what I think people don’t understand for so many of us our kids. As soon as they get home to where it’s safe or to the people they’re safe with all hell breaks loose as they say, it gets really rough because finally, they can let go of what they need to from the whole day. Is that something you experienced?

Diana: Yeah, I have experienced that since she started school, honestly since she was five years old. The very first thing that she would report and it was a daily, and I never even put it together the those from school was, “I have a tummy ache”. Like I would say, “How’s school?” and look over and pickup, “How is school, it was good, I have a tummy ache”, every day. So, I went to the pediatrician. Anyway, so the point is that it’s very long-standing and it was a long road for even the medical professionals to realize that it wasn’t physical. Well, it was a physical ailment but what might be underneath it because a child of that age lacks the words or then even knowledge of what it is. But I think going back to what I said earlier about “Please don’t diagnose us or say that I might be part of the problem”, well, if she’s only doing this around you, what is only doing around me because she can. She knows that I will still love and accept her no matter what, and she is barely holding it together – and so are a ton of other people in school every day or at work even. They’re just waiting to be able to come undone because they perceive that to be successful and functional in our society that they have to assimilate. They have to be like the other people around them and so they’re exhausted by the time they get home because not only they had to face several stressors throughout the day, they’ve also had to pretend to feel like other people who aren’t experiencing it.

Tammy:  They’re exerting a tremendous amount of energy. They’re not only in pain internally, they’re exerting so much amount of energy all day long. They get home, they’re exhausted. So what does mom get? Mom gets the exhausted –  so you get the full meltdown? So, us moms, we get all that, so we’re stressed and tired because we have that sometimes full time.

Diana: Right, and then we are the crazy person because we then get on the email at 10 o’clock at night. “The following is what my daughter perceives happened today.” I realized because sometimes I would get emails where they were assuring me that wasn’t the case, I know that’s not the case. I’m relaying to you that that’s what she thinks happened and so please have some compassion tomorrow when you see her again, love up on her, and those kinds of things. You really do come across as the crazy parent because A, they don’t see that and B, as we exhibited, they get late-night seemingly insane emails from a parent.

Tammy: Right, and they’re not seeing what you’re going with your child. I just think there are so many levels of what you just said that’s so important  – that it’s invisible, and we do sound hysterical a lot of the times. But ultimately this is the life of our kid on the line. So, of course, we feel that way, right?

Diana: Yes, and I think that every– well, I want to say teacher but it probably goes beyond that and society, but people who are part of a system should be forced to watch like a documentary or receive some basic level of training on some of these things that they might not know. Because I think if you saw it you wouldn’t question me anymore. You’d be like, “Holy God, that was awful”.

Tammy: It’s not like what it looks like on TV right. I always joke I wish my son had TV autism or TV bipolar, or TV something because it’s done in a half hour and wrapped up then nicely, everything’s solved, right?

Diana: Yes.

Tammy: In real life, it doesn’t feel that.

Diana: Or it goes in one direction on TV. That’s another thing that I would say to people who don’t live this journey, something that I can share is, “Please don’t assume that there is a trajectory and we’re moving across like in one direction. How are things going is a minute-to-minute if not day by day conversation, and so please forgive me when I seem frustrated”. If you say to me, “Well, she seemed like she was so much better. She seemed like she was feeling better”. She did. That was two days ago.

Tammy: I think that’s so important too because as a caregiver isn’t that disruptive and hard to plan and all that because you never know what the day’s going to bring. It’s not like you can say, “We passed this phase, now we’re here”. It’s constantly coming from different directions.

Diana: I have said is like chasing a chicken around a barnyard. That is the movement, it is every single way. Her dad texted me because he was out of state and he had been gone a few days. He said, “How is she doing?”, and I said, “Lots of different ways. You missed four whole days, she has had 18 different plateaus”

Tammy: “In the last two seconds or, yeah.” No, I think that’s really important because it does change constantly. So, as you think about the journey going on with your child, what has really been a barrier to getting the help your child needed or something you tried that just didn’t work in your case that might be helpful for people to know that this was a barrier?

Diana: There have been a lot of barriers and since it did start when she was very young and progressed through these years, and became more discernible to the untrained eye, so I would say some of the barriers along the way were her dad and I. Like our lack of understanding what was really going on and always well-intentioned but sometimes probably detrimental plans that we did. I have a background in behavioral health, so we did a lot of like charts and if-then and first-then and I’ll know you’re ready when this. We have always wanted to be helpful but haven’t always known what the hell we were doing.

Then at the point where we were getting– she had a physical and her blood pressure, she was a little girl, off the charts. They said, “She does seem to have an amazing amount of anxiety. We were given an eye test and she seems to be having like a panic attack. We better bring her back in a week because that’s really not healthy for her to have that high of blood pressures”, so when she came back in a week and they just did a blood pressure and they were taking more of a mental health approach, they referred us for psychiatry at that time because of the high level of anxiety that they saw just at the physical. It was something that did not work. It was a bad fit. It was a psychiatrist with no bedside manner, it was awful.

I have some background in this area and I will say it was awful. So, that was really limiting  – medical appointments that are a trigger for her.

Tammy: That’s not easy in this situation.

Diana: Yes, and you get the person to the appointment and then it blows up also, it was not good. So, that kept us from getting medical intervention for a whole another a year because that went so poorly, and her dad felt like, “this is– you know what I’m talking about, which is that she doesn’t have a mental health issue. So let’s stop coming at her with it and stop projecting things onto her.” That was something– school is something that hasn’t worked and it hasn’t worked for a long time but we’ve thrown a lot of things at it. Seventh grade was where it really hit the fan, and we realized she could not handle it and she’s breaking down every single day.

We dual-enrolled her and then after winter break had to just pull out entirely and home-school, but during that time we also were able to get her therapy and medication because it was becoming so abundantly clear that she needed more intervention, and that was seventh grade. Then in ninth grade again she went to school in eighth grade and it did work. She was on medication things seemed to be going pretty well and she had learned the building in the system which was doing well in the seventh grade. But then in ninth grade when she’d make another transition and another change just the school anxiety just really ramped up and to the point where now she is home-schooled and she’s not in the public school system because they just don’t have what she needs there, and she cannot deal with the many levels of stress.

Tammy: Can you talk a little bit about that because when it comes to children’s mental health as opposed to adults and I’m sure this is true for adults but not at the same level, kids are going through a lot of changes. You mentioned like structural changes, huge changes from elementary to junior to high school, and what your days like and what your life’s like, and your social world is like. But physically, our kids are changing immensely between childhood, adolescence puberty so their bodies are changing. So, sounded like your daughter was doing well with medication and then she wasn’t, and that seems typical for a lot of families I know. Something works and then all the sudden it doesn’t. I know that happens to adults but I think for children when you’re going through so many physical changes, social changes at such a phenomenal level it just feels like you’re constantly starting over again. Is that sound right or?

Diana: Yes. That’s actually been an added layer to this struggle. Starting in ninth grade she became med non-compliant, which was a very big hurdle. We had allowed her to go off her medication. She was doing really well in eighth grade and felt that she didn’t need it and so that was done with our blessing but then in the 9th grade when she was really struggling, my mantra has always been, “I’m not saying you have to go to school. I’m saying that everybody who is mentally and physically healthy is at school today. If you’re not we need to be looking at what’s underneath, and that’s what we need to be doing. I don’t need you to go to school just to have geography of being in that building. I need us to look at why you can’t feel like you’re successful there and why it is putting you past a point to be there”, and so these are the things that we can do.

She just felt like nothing ever works. It doesn’t help anyway and so she was on– we got her to do a medication that, of course, this is I’ve heard so many people share this journey and frustration, that medication did not work, and so for her, it was fueling the, “I told you nothing works”. We had our four to six weeks, went off of it and then the next medication that was prescribed she just was never compliant enough for us to realize if it was working or not. That was a huge struggle and then in a meantime, I think what am I going to do and she’s missing school, and again we’re going back to our behavioral things which were not the point. It was not the point in her ninth through a tenth-grade year.

Another thing that we didn’t identify was depression was starting to take over anxiety and we were still considering it to be anxiety, though the medication often is the same. But the way I might approach things with her, recognizing that it’s depression, not laziness or avoidance, that kind of thing. We’ve been our own worst enemy a few times and–

Tammy: Well you have to be gentle with yourself about that. First of all, everything you said about that, what I love about this podcast is I have parents who don’t have children’s mental illness go, that’s true for all parents too. Every parent messes up and tries a bit. We all learn as we go but here it’s really hard because as you’re saying you don’t know what’s working.

Diana: You feel like you’ve got to be …

Tammy: You don’t have a control, right?

Diana: Right.

Tammy: You can’t take control of your kid and say what’s working or what’s not.

Diana: Particularly with the medication, I just feel like I am putting pellets into a cage and hoping for the best. We’re on another new medication right now that we’re in the four to six weeks range, and that doesn’t appear to be helping either and then you have to decide if you want to up the dose or try something different and go another. In the meantime, it is very painful to be inside their skin and you feel rather helpless.

Tammy: It’s just hard to watch them suffer.

Diana: Yeah, and not everybody going back to the people who don’t live this day in and day out, and everybody sees that they are suffering. Most of our kids are amazing actors and actresses, and they want to be accepted and be part of a group and be normal.

Tammy: I would add to that that most of our kids that have mental illness are incredibly strong. The strength it takes for them to do what they do is immense. If I’m hearing about your daughter and she must be an incredibly strong person to be able to make people think she’s just fine when she’s dealing with all that, it has to be really hard to get through.

Diana: Yeah, and she actually at a point last fall where she did sort of have a full breakdown, and that is nothing that I had seen before, and it was like someone broke a toy almost. Like she became monosyllabic and she is somebody who never left the house not looking on point, she shuffled around. When I would need to take her to appointments she would still wear her pajama bottoms and I’d have to hand her her shoes and the light behind her eyes had gone out and so I do think in that time. Also, she was incredibly strong because just staying here like was my main goal and because I could see that the weight of the pain was almost unbearable, and so at that time she couldn’t. She tried a couple times to leave the house and she had some friends who really hung- and like for being teenagers -they really hung in there and didn’t give up on her over the months. She did try to go out and see them a couple times and didn’t make it, but I was so proud of her for one time we got all the way to the door, all she had her hand on the door.

Tammy: Wonderful.

Diana: Yeah, and now she’s able to leave the house and go see her friends and things and–

Tammy: That’s great.

Diana: Yeah, so I think that there are little wins and you just have a different life, you celebrate different things.

Tammy: Absolutely, but it’s so important to celebrate them and recognize.

Diana: Yeah.

Tammy: Yeah, absolutely. So, what has worked well what in trying to get help for her things that have worked, that you’re like, “Thank goodness that that worked that way”?

Diana: I think having some background in this area was extremely helpful. Not that it helped me deal with her necessarily better but I knew people and I knew therapists, and I already had therapists that I had worked with that I knew had done an amazing job or did good work and put some really challenging kiddos. I felt like I’m very lucky that I was able to handpick because finding a fit is a huge part and you can have a talented therapist and a person who’s willing to do therapy and have that not been a fit. I feel like that’s been a blessing and that has really worked well like being able to find providers, and I feel like one of the things that was working well and I’ve changed my tack duck on it, but I first was thinking when she had that I want to say break down that I would share that with people because I have felt strongly I have to be part of reducing stigma. Now I am completely backtracking from that because in order to reduce stigma you sometimes need a community or a society that’s more educated and more well informed, which is why when you ask to what I talk to him what would I say because this is not mine to tell necessarily. It’s my daughter’s and she doesn’t want it shared and now I can kind of see why because people don’t understand, and they sell her short or sell us short or feel like, “We might be wrong in some way”.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Diana: It’s- it’s very challenging, and so that is something that has worked well too is my daughter. My daughter is a fighter and so having her has worked well.

Tammy: Sounds like she’s awesome?

Diana: She is.

Tammy: I think that sometimes really hard is when the world doesn’t get to see how awesome our kids are because maybe they can’t get out the door, or maybe you’re seeing a different side. You’re not seeing the true person, you’re seeing the illness or you’re not seeing anything. I think that’s the one thing we can say is, “Our kids are awesome – we get to yell that”.

Diana: And I recorded her too, often with me having fun, and she will tell me to stop or tease me, but I say “No”, I’m like, “This is you” and later she’ll ask for my phone and she’ll look at those videos and I want her to remember.” This is you too –  on the couch having a bad day, that’s not all you are – you are everybody you’ve ever been”.

Tammy: I like that. I like that one. So, right now because as we said it changes moment to moment to moment, in this moment do you feel like you’re swimming, drowning, treading water, how are you right now in this journey?

Diana: Right now I would say I’m treading water at best but that’s really me. I don’t know that my daughter has changed that much. I think that a couple of things maybe for me and my ability to just be copacetic has changed and maybe that’s just the ability to have long-standing care. It’s a lot different – my energy level now, than it was a couple of years ago. My daughter might be exactly the same but I might worry incessantly one day and be completely okay the next. I feel like I can’t leave her one day and feel like she’ll be fine the next.

Tammy: Let’s talk about that because I feel like we don’t honor enough that we too are human beings with emotional lives. Sometimes when you’re so busy taking care of a child who has emotional struggles, we’re so busy trying to help them with their emotions that we don’t allow us, ourselves,  you know what I mean? Like we’re just, “Okay, I’ll take care of myself later. I’m just taking care of your emotions”. It’s some days I can deal with my son’s issues on some days they really get to me, and he might be exactly the same both days.

Diana: Yeah, one hundred percent, I think that one thing that’s important is getting some sort of therapy and care for your own self and self-care, and I have neglected that a little bit. I have done it and not done it over the years but–

Tammy: You’re not alone there.

[laughter]

Diana: But that is definitely something that I would recommend because you heal some, just being able to share things that it would not be productive to share with your family because it escalates some situations.

Tammy: Absolutely. You also said something that worked well for you that our listeners who may not have the benefit of being in a profession where they feel like they have that network, they can still network. Like through support groups, through the advocacy networks that you can create a network where you know people in the field. That’s very helpful to have that, and so that’s something to think about because I know if you don’t have that you’re like, “well where do I go?” but you can start trying to build that network of other families who’ve been through it, talk to their providers and get to know who’s out there, and who’s doing what. I don’t know if you agree with that or not? It just seems like you’re right knowing lots of people in this realm to be really helpful.

Diana: Yes, and I think that even if you don’t know anybody in most areas, there is NAMI or something along those lines that has a support group for family members and those can be so beneficial on so many levels. Not only are you feeling less isolated because you have somebody who shares your experiences and that can just feel affirming, but then you also have people who have tried 14 therapists and found one who is good, and that is a huge resource. So, I would strongly encourage that and have done that myself and it is something that I think we all need and deserve is to not feel alone.

Tammy: Absolutely because no one in this situation is alone.

Diana: But you can feel very much like that.

Tammy: It feels like it but when you look at the numbers it’s so common, which is so sad that we’re feeling alone when we’re surrounded by others who are feeling alone in the same reality. So, what is your self-care routine or more appropriate survival technique? What do you do to take care of you when things are getting rough. You mentioned some things that like yoga I can imagine really helps, like what do you do?

Diana: Yes. Well, I try to keep a good balance of things in my life and I actually was doing some volunteering things in the community. I’ve had to back away from that and again, those are things that can ebb and flow. Right now where my daughter is I’m not able to do that, but when you help you heal and you’re not so directed inwardly on my own issues and my own thing, and if you’re being of service to others, I think that it’s therapeutic. In my experience, it has been hugely therapeutic. It gets you outside of your own head and you’re doing something productive and you can feel good about that. So, that that has been and I’m sure it will be again and I enjoy doing that. Yoga, yes absolutely. I can tell sometimes if I started my day with yoga because when things come at me I react a little more even keeled.

Sometimes it is just indulging a little. I was in a ridiculously complex and challenging life space in right around between Thanksgiving and winter break, and the therapist that I was chatting with said, “What are you doing for your own self?” I said, “Well, this morning I had a fudge brownie and layered peanut butter on it, and I just enjoyed every morsel of that brownie. I just took that moment and really picking up on some of the things that are shared as part of strategies and coping strategies, and those kinds of supports, for people with mental health is also really good for us as well. Mindfulness is something that I would encourage everybody to look into because you can pull yourself out of a vortex that you might be slipping into because of your situation which is very real, but it doesn’t benefit anybody to just kind of lean into it or wallow.

Tammy: Absolutely, and that fudge brownie was real too?

Diana: Yes,

Tammy: So, it was okay to be with the fudge brownie for a while.

Diana: I was happy  – maybe bad for the hips but good for the soul.

Tammy: Absolutely, I love that. So, what’s your most laughable moment. Sometimes if we didn’t have laughter it’d be a lot harder to get through this. What makes you laugh about when you think of this journey?

Diana: I think one thing that was a laughable moment that is not necessarily laughable now, actually I guess it is. I didn’t realize that my daughter had started to self-medicate and that was tough because I felt like maybe there’s one thing we didn’t have going wrong. Surprise! So, when I first experienced that and she was under the influence and it actually led to a discourse that wouldn’t have probably otherwise have happened. I remember at one point things were very escalated on her end and she was yelling at me, and she said, “Why aren’t you yelling back? Why aren’t you fighting? You almost look like you’re smiling. What’s wrong with you?” and I said, “I’m just happy we’re finally talking”.

Tammy: [laughter] I love it. I bet that annoyed her though.

Diana: Well, right then, to be fair, that wasn’t out of the ordinary. It was actually that better out than in. Sometimes I think parents protect our children, and keep in mind that our children try to protect us, and they did. They perceive things as being good and bad even when we try and direct them not to, they don’t want us to necessarily see dark ugly things, and you need to, like I need to know that’s there because we can’t address it or fix it or get to the root, and pull it if I don’t ever even know.

Tammy: Thanks for saying that. I don’t think that’s something we’ve discussed yet and any of these podcasts but is so important, our kids do try to protect us. They don’t want us to know all the horrible things that are happening inside their heads and that they struggling what.

Diana: And that’s dangerous.

Tammy: It’s very dangerous.

Diana: And I can see not wanting people to know, and I’m sure it’s very vulnerable but you have to be able to let that out and give that some space too.

Tammy: Thank you so much for talking to us. I really appreciate it – you sharing your story with us.

Diana: Thank you.

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Tammy:  You have been listening to the Just Ask Mom series, part of the mothers on the frontline podcast. Copyrighted in 2018. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is “Olde English” written, performed and recorded by Flame Emoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health go to mothersonthefrontline.com or subscribe to Mothers On The Frontline on iTunes, Android, Google Play, Stitcher or Spotify. Mothers On The Frontline is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization that uses storytelling for caregiver healing and children’s mental health advocacy. We strive to reduce stigma, educate the public and influence positive policy change through our podcast series and storytelling workshops. We are currently working with Grinnell College to document and archive stories of lived experience with a school the Prison Pipeline, an issue importantly connected to children’s mental health and well-being. If you would like to support our work please visit our website and make a tax-deductible donation at mothersonthefrontline.com.

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