Raising a child with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Anxiety

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Welcome to Mothers on the Frontline Podcast. Today, as part of our Just Ask Mom Series,we listen to a Mom of a 9 year old diagnosed with ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Anxiety in 2014.

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Tammy: Tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering, who are you, what do you love, what do you love to do?

Mom: I love yoga. I’m a very fanatic yogi and what has happened with my son has really put me in touch with yoga and with mindfulness so I really like to do that. I like to walk, I like to do gardening and I just overall, am a very positive person, and I like to just have fun.

Tammy: Well that’s wonderful, it’s wonderful. So I want you to pretend you’re talking to parents. What do you want them to know about your experiences? What can you share that may be helpful for them to know?

Mom: So in 2014, my son was officially diagnosed with ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder ODD and anxiety, and we have been going through a struggle which started actually with him in preschool. Where we had seen some of the signs but we weren’t quite sure.He also has allergies, and because of that, he had to be on steroids sometimes.So it was very hard to figure out what is normal to 3-year-old behavior, what is induced by being on steroids and what is behavior that is cause for concern.And at that time too when I would be talking to my parents-in-law, often they would say like, well, you know your husband was just the same when he was little. But then after a while, we were really starting to struggle. It was hard for us sometimes to enjoy weekends. Where you’re looking forward to Monday because it’s so draining, emotionally draining to be around your little guy.And there comes a huge guilt complex with that because you feel like it’s your fault, you’re not doing something right. And after a while, my husband and I,we were just like, we need help. And at the time he was in daycare which also had a preschool tied to it. They were very open to working with us, so we, theysaid like, we’ll have somebody from the AEA [Area Education Agency] come in, evaluate, and then we’ll just see what happens. We did that. There was some cause for concern and then we also, on our own reached out to psychologist and start working with her. And then in 2014, by the year before he went to kindergarten, he got officially diagnosed. So which was for us, a lot of things sort of all the puzzle pieces start to come together. And we were just relieved in a way. But then, on the other hand, it’s like there’s a huge learning curve. Because now it’s like, I know what it is, but what do I need to know? So…

Tammy: Right. So, for parents who are out there who are starting their journey, they haven’t had the diagnosis yet or ones that have just got it. Like what could you talk about in terms of barriers that you have faced that had been hard for you to get your child the help he needs?

Mom: Personally for myself, I think I was the biggest barrier because sometimes you’re in denial and you think like oh it’s just the age. It will be okay. This will, well, will resolve itself down the line but it’s not. So it just, once you come to that realization and also give yourself a break. I think sometimes as parents,we all try to do a really good job but we’re only humans too but we’re really hard on ourselves. And a lot with mental illness diagnosis, there’s a lot of shame I think sometimes connected to it as well.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Mom:So people or parents it holds them back at that shame but it’s okay to ask for help.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Mom: And I think that sometimes that was a barrier for myself. Like I’m always being very independent. I’m a go-getter. I just get things done myself. But there was a point that I reach that I was like I don’t want to live like this. This is not normal. If I’m doing something wrong I need help and I need somebody to let me know, how I need to adjust my parenting style because I want to enjoy the time I spent together with my little guy.

Tammy: You brought up several things that are really important. I mean one is it’s really confusing and you don’t get to have a control. You have a kid, you don’t get to have a scientific control and say okay what really is causing this. Let’s change some variables.No, and especially for those of us who, it’s our only or first child. It can even be, we don’t know what normal is and it’s such a wide range. So it’s hard to know if this is neurotypical development or it’s something we should pay attention to. Is it just quirky or is it something that’s problematic that they need help with. So that’s just hard to know. You also brought up another element which is the shame, right? And so asking for help and the third thing is if your child, there’s something going on, we often have to adapt. So it isn’t that our parenting is wrong, it’s our parenting is wrong for the child with this neurology.

Mom: Exactly.

Tammy: So there’s no one right way to parent. It depends on the child’s needs. I love that you brought up all that. I just wanted to go back over that because I think that’s a really important for us trying to go through it. It gets all mingled up. So I love that. 

Mom: And that was what I had too. I was going by how I was raised by my mom and dad, and I think they did a superb job, but I was a very easy kid. I will always, I listened, I didn’t fuss a lot and I was also raised and I think a lot of people of our generation are raised like that. If mom and dad ask you something, you do it and that was the hardest for me. Like why is my kid not listening to me? And because of his ODD diagnosis, he’s not as much defiant towards the dad but it’s more towards me.Which is weird too because they always say like they will be less defiant to the authoritative person in the relationship but that’s actually me [laughs] who’s the one that [inaudible]. He’s like yeah if go to mommy and asked her that, I’m not going to get away with that. I’ll just go to dad. [laughs]

Tammy: [laughs] You know but that’s another thing. Just like all kids and all human beings they are different with different people and it can be really, it can hurt our feelings.Like it can be really hard when we’re the ones seeing the symptoms, right? And so that can be really hard and often it could be because we’re the parent they feel safe with or the person they feel safe with in terms of they know they’re not going to not love me if I act up. As opposed to like a stranger, a teacher or something like that. They might hold it in more or something. Yeah. No. It’s really hard. So, same thing. Thinking about parents out there, what has worked really well in getting help for your child? What had been some successes or things you’re like, thank goodness that that happened or is available or–?

Mom: The number one thing for me was first, I had to change myself before I was able to help my son. I had to let goof control. I had to let go of worrying and that goes often with control because you want to know, oh, what’s going to happen then? Well, how is this journey going to be? Is it always going to be like this? And after a while, I just let go of all of that. I’d lived day by day. I take one day at a time. If we sometimes have a bad day, I always say, tomorrow is another day and we start with a clean slate. And I tell my son that as well. For myself too, I let go of emotions because I had such an emotional kid, and he still is but we’ve really worked hard with him on helping gauge his emotions better or that he’s just more aware of them and then he will be able to stop himself. And I think sometimes maturity helps with it as well. But at the time when we were struggling, I would always get like asking put your shoes on. It was like World War III. And it’s the battle you engage and you get worked up and you get upset and you start yelling which I hate to do or you hear yourself the whole time just saying no, no, you can’t do this because he’s like all over the place.That for me was just letting go of that control and just being aware of that.Like I’m not going to go invest my emotions in that. I’m going to be very patient. I’m just going to take a step back and stay calm. And that has really helped like it’s not always successful.

Tammy: It’s not easy. 

Mom: Sometimes I have to dig really,really, really deep or I’m thinking like, oh, I really want to do this or this and this right now but no, I don’t look good in orange so I’m not going to do that. But then again, that helps me just sometimes to get through it because the sense of humor. Just being aware of like this is a very tough situation and I’m just trying to do my best. And sometimes I can’t do that and I walk away.And I give myself that break then I’m just like I can’t handle this. I just walk away and it’s okay. 

Tammy: It’s not only okay it’s great modeling for your son. 

Mom: I try to. Yeah.

Tammy: And it’s really important for you and me and all mothers and caregivers. It’s wonderful that you’re doing that. But it’s hard. 

Mom: It is hard. It is extremely hard and sometimes you feel like I am on top of the world, I got this down, I like my new parenting style, I become calmer, more patient, I don’t let my emotions get a hold of me that much anymore and other days you’re just like oh,I suck at this. 

Tammy: Right now, it sounds like you’re talking about when it was really rough, but even when things are going well, we recognize, they change from moment to moment and so we like to ask right now, do you feel like you’re swimming, drowning, treading water, where are you at right now?

Mom: I feel like I’m swimming but I also know due to his ADHD and his ODD, especially at the beginning of the school year can be quite challenging. He knows the principal, he knows his special ed teacher but it’s always like he has a new teacher. So he tries to kind of figure out like what can I get away with and this is where the behavioral issues like the defiance will come in. He doesn’t want to do his math which he’s really good at but he has a love-hate relationship with it. And he’s just trying to testing the waters so I know maybe by next week, the week after that, we’re going to hit that wall where they’re going to say well, he did this today and he did that today and then after a while, by October,November, he’ll be like, no, the teacher, she sticks to her guns. I can’t manipulate her. I’ll just comply. I’ll just do my math. I’m good but I always am aware of that. Like last year, we hit a wall again to where his medication that he was on for his anxiety was not working anymore. So we really saw, because he was older, so we had to switch medications.

Tammy: Which happens a lot when kids are developing. 

Mom: Yes, exactly because the current dose like what he was on was no longer working and we just saw certain behaviors reappear again that we were like, oh, we thought we were done with this. But then we were aware of that and then we informed the school about it.We said we’re going to go to the psychiatrist. We’re going to explain this and probably we’ll switch medications which happened but then most of his medications, it takes about at least four to six weeks so we communicate that to the school. That was like hang in there. We know it’s rough. We’re with you because what you’re experiencing in school, we’re experiencing at home but then the medication started to work and he’s been doing great. So I know down the line, we will always hit rough patches but I’m aware of that. It’s almost like an expectation that I know like, yeah, we’ll go there.

Tammy: Let’s talk about that a minute because I think that’s really important. It seems to me a common thing, I know in my own experience when I talk to other mothers and other caregivers. The first time is devastating when you first have symptoms and then things happen maybe a therapy, maybe a medication, things seem to do a little better and then things happen again and that seems to me the most devastating because you first thought we’ve knocked this like we have this imagination–

Mom: We got this down.

Tammy: — we solved it.

Mom: Yeah. We solved it. [laughs]

Tammy: Like it’s cured. No. And so but then there’s a kind of confidence that comes with going through a few cycles knowing you can do this. You got it. It’s hard but you got through in the past. You’ll get through again. Take it a day at a time. That’s how you doit so I think that’s a really important thing for people to hear who are just having the first time or what I think is even harder is that second time things start to get rough. To know it will ebb and flow and you’re okay, you’re gonna be okay. 

Mom: Yeah. Exactly. And it was how you described it. That’s exactly how it is because I think even if you get a diagnosis in a way you have the expectations. You’re like I know it’s really rough right now but later on, they will be okay and all of this is just magically going to go away. No, it’s not. It’s just going to be a day they become older. A lot of again, maturity helps a lot with some of the disabilities that my son has but my husband actually got diagnosed a year afterwards because he said, well, I’ve been having a lot of these struggles that I seen in our little guy. And a lot of the behaviors I was like that when I was little. So I think I’m going to get myself tested as well. So he has ADHD as well but it was a good thing. It was kind of knowing like and for him especially, going on medication, that helps so much.

Tammy: And this is another common thing. It happens for a lot of parents because there’s a lot of genetic passing down many of this conditions and our generation and generations before us didn’t have the knowledge and the outreach on these issues so I know many people who are getting diagnosed after their kids are doing it. It can help everybody so much. So that’s really wonderful that happened.

Mom: For us, it’s been a real, areal positive like you go through that, you sat on that journey and then you were like a lot of things and especially for my husband, a lot of things started to make sense in his world as well then. And then some of it was a little bit grief knowing that I remember when he went the first day on his medication, by noon, he said like I’ll never forget it. Wow, is this what it feels like to be normal? And then the second thing that he said was, I wish I would have had this medication when I was in college. And that to me just showed how much of a struggle it can be and that explains also the stigma that is still on mental disabilities because often people, they will look at a person, they’re like, well, I don’t see anything wrong with them.

Tammy: Invisible disabilities are tough. 

Mom: It’s really tough and then there’s the behavioral issues and then kids start to act out but then if you don’t understand the disability like people are well, why are they doing this wrong? It’s okay. It’s normal because I always say, there’s a lady that actually wrote a book this year which I’m a big fan of and I would strongly recommend to parents, especially to moms to read it. It’s Differently Wired:Raising An Exceptional Child in a Conventional World. It’s by Deborah Reber. And she calls her kid differently wired.

Tammy: I like that.

Mom: And I call my kid differently wired too or an atypical kid. It’s like they’re just a little bit differently wired. Their brains make a little bit, there’s different connections in there but overall, they’re still good kids. They’re fun kids. Because I think sometimes there are so much attention is being given to their negative behaviors and these kids so much need to positive reinforcement. They needed so much more than your regular wired kid. 

 Tammy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And Ithink that’s true and also sometimes, the differently wired comes with benefits that we don’t talk about enough too. I think that’s one the things as well. Sowe’ve been talking a lot about your journey with your child but what is yourself-care routine or more appropriate survival technique? I know you mentioned yoga and mindfulness which are so key I’m sure. So do you want to talk a little bit more about that? How does that help you or are there things you do to sort of take care of you?

 Mom: Sometimes it’s easier thanother times. I feel sometimes when things are going really good, you’re very motivated to go to yoga class and being mindful but I notice when there is survival awareness or survival mode. It’s like I’m tired. I don’t want to go do this.No, I don’t feel happy right now. I don’t want to go to a yoga class but for me, if I’m aware of it and I can have that conversation with myself then I push myself to yes, you got to leave everything right now because you talking to yourself or having this little mind games going on, that means you need to get your butt to yoga and go relax for an hour and then usually, by the end of that class, I’m like, oh, I so needed this. [laughs]

Tammy: I’m me again. [laughs]

 Mom: And for me also, I have greatfriends. They understand. They’re part of my gang. They don’t judge and sometimes when I’m struggling because at sometimes you don’t want to necessarily talk to your husband because you’re going through the same thing.You’re talking about it but you always need that perspective. You always need to talk to other people that have gone through the same experiences or understands and that really helps like when I’m sometimes struggling and I’m like, oh, what am I doing wrong? Or not just that. You just hit a rough spot again. I just I’m like okay, we’re going to have breakfast. Get together with my friends and then after a two-hour talk, I’m like, I got this. 

Tammy: That’s a really good point because as you said it changes and I know with my own sisterhood of friends,right? We’ve been lucky that we’re not all crashing at the exact same moment somehow. I don’t know how that works out. It’s only happened once where we’re all like oh, no, what do we do? We’re all drowning right now but so you’re right. Because if you’re talking to someone like a spouse, a partner, even a mother or father, if they’re helping you take care of your children, if they’re involved with it and they’re going through the same thing at the same moment,they’re going through it too. So having that outside group that understands is so helpful to have that support and I think that’s right. So we like to end with this question. And we feel like anyone raising kids, this has nothing to do with neurotypical or not. There are some funny things those kids have done or that have happened in our lives that make us smile. So we like to ask, what is your most laughable moment when you think about your experience with your son? Anything that makes you smile or–?

Mom: He just makes me, he’s got a great sense of humor. I’m always so surprised because sometimes you get so much negative feedback what goes on in school and the school he goes to, they’re really great about also they celebrate the good things and we tell them to please don’t only you tell us when things are going wrong. We need to hear it when he is doing great because at school, they make a big deal about it and we make a big deal about it at home too. And usually, it’s a sense of humor. He will say this, I can’t quite recall thing but he’s just funny. There’s one thing, yeah. When he was little, I have a friend and she’s called Mary and she would come and babysit him at times just when we wanted to go get a break or,and she was very understanding. She was unjudging or anything and he knew howto handle him. And then one time, I was like yeah, Mary is coming a later on and he’s like Mary? He’s like, my Mary? And I’m like, yeah, and he looked at me very seriously and he’s like well, you need to get your own Mary. 

Tammy:

[laughs]

I love it.

Mom: And I’m like, okay. 

Tammy: No sharing Mary. [laughs]

Mom: No. 

Tammy: That’s great. Well, I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us and share your story and really appreciate hearing about it and how you and your family are doing. So thank you.

Mom: Thank you for giving me the opportunity. 

Tammy: Thanks. 

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You have been listening to the  “Just Ask Mom” series, part of the Mothers on the Frontline Podcast, copyrighted in 2018.Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is “Olde English”, written,performed, and recorded by FlameEmoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to MothersOnTheFrontline.com or subscribe to “Mothers on the Frontline” on ITunes, Android, Google Play,Sticher, and Spotify. Mothers on the Frontline is a non-profit 501 (c)(3)organization that uses storytelling for caregiver healing and children’s mental health advocacy. We strive to reduce stigma, educate the public, and influence positive policy change through our podcast series and storytelling workshops.We are currently working with Grinnell College to document and archive stories of lived experience with the school to prison pipeline, an issue importantly connected to children’s mental health and wellbeing. If you would like to support our work, please visit our website and make a tax deductible donation at mothersonthefrontline.com.

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You are everybody you’ve ever been, Just Ask Mom Series episode 19

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In this episode, Diana shares her experience mothering a 17 year old daughter with anxiety and depression.

Mentioned on this episode:

NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness: https://www.nami.org/

Transcription

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Voiceover: Welcome to the Just Ask Mom podcast where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illness. Just Ask Mom is a mother’s on the frontline production. Today we will listen to Diana, an Iowa parent with a 17-year-old daughter with anxiety and depression.

Tammy: Tell us a little bit about yourself before or outside of mothering. What are your passions? Who are you? What do you love?

Diana: Well, I enjoy biking and taking long bike rides, not competitively or anything but just kind of peddling along. I enjoy yoga and take some time for that when I can, and I enjoy writing.

Tammy: Wonderful. Do you like creative writing, journaling, what kind of stuff do you do?

Diana: All of that. I used to write for the newspaper when I’m just column and just kind of a life in the day of life and of mom, and that was fine.

Tammy: That’s wonderful, it’s great. I want you to pretend that you’re talking to people who just haven’t had any direct experience with mental illness –   whether in their own life or anyone else in their direct family or friends- they just haven’t had to deal with it. What would you like them to know about your experience?

Diana: What I would like them to know beyond just my experience and just in general but particularly with me if you see me, is that it isn’t always what you think it is and it doesn’t always look how you think it’s supposed to look. Please don’t make the assumption that we might be wrong or dramatic or overreacting, and I know it might seem like that at times, but please just put compassion first and really trust that somebody who is living a situation particularly with their own child, their own family member. They are the expert and if they say something that doesn’t really make sense to you based on what you observe of that child or that person, please just be compassionate and believe that there’s probably a lot going on under the surface or things that you don’t understand about it, and appreciate their honesty and being able to share.

Tammy: Absolutely. Can you think of examples of where people have just not seen –  like they see it one way but something else is going on  – so that you just wish you could just sort of scream?

Diana: Every day.

[laughter]

Diana: Every day. An example that comes to mind is a parent-teacher conference in which I was trying once again to gently and with a friendly face remind teachers that my daughter has a 504 plan, and that she has these accommodations and that they’re legally required to provide those to her. We were having a little difficulty and the teacher said, “Well, I just don’t think she’s anxious, I mean I don’t see it. I don’t think she has anxiety, frankly”, which is kind of a classic example. I actually appreciate the candor that that teacher showed because there are other people who are more passive about it but they certainly seem to be indicating that maybe my hyper-vigilance is causing anxiety. That’s tough to take, it’s a little insulting. There are people who sell my daughter short and kind of limit her based on, “Well if she’s really anxious then maybe she should just do this and not even try this other thing”.

Tammy: I think it’s a really good point because mental illness is portrayed a certain way in the media and movies and all this kind of thing. The assumption is you could see and know what is going on with someone, but someone could be going through a whole lot and look fine on the outside sometimes, or at least be able to do that for a small amount of time whether at school, at work or what have it. Right? It would be easy for someone to not notice because they’re not living with it day to day.

Diana: Right. I think that my daughter is very much like that. I think that girls, in general, are designed with being a people pleaser in mind more often, and so you might not see what you think you’re supposed to see if somebody has mental illness. I will see and hear all about it –  let me assure you  – when the wheels come off the bus later when they’re at home which is their safe space and you know which is that.

Tammy: Talk about that because that’s what I think people don’t understand for so many of us our kids. As soon as they get home to where it’s safe or to the people they’re safe with all hell breaks loose as they say, it gets really rough because finally, they can let go of what they need to from the whole day. Is that something you experienced?

Diana: Yeah, I have experienced that since she started school, honestly since she was five years old. The very first thing that she would report and it was a daily, and I never even put it together the those from school was, “I have a tummy ache”. Like I would say, “How’s school?” and look over and pickup, “How is school, it was good, I have a tummy ache”, every day. So, I went to the pediatrician. Anyway, so the point is that it’s very long-standing and it was a long road for even the medical professionals to realize that it wasn’t physical. Well, it was a physical ailment but what might be underneath it because a child of that age lacks the words or then even knowledge of what it is. But I think going back to what I said earlier about “Please don’t diagnose us or say that I might be part of the problem”, well, if she’s only doing this around you, what is only doing around me because she can. She knows that I will still love and accept her no matter what, and she is barely holding it together – and so are a ton of other people in school every day or at work even. They’re just waiting to be able to come undone because they perceive that to be successful and functional in our society that they have to assimilate. They have to be like the other people around them and so they’re exhausted by the time they get home because not only they had to face several stressors throughout the day, they’ve also had to pretend to feel like other people who aren’t experiencing it.

Tammy:  They’re exerting a tremendous amount of energy. They’re not only in pain internally, they’re exerting so much amount of energy all day long. They get home, they’re exhausted. So what does mom get? Mom gets the exhausted –  so you get the full meltdown? So, us moms, we get all that, so we’re stressed and tired because we have that sometimes full time.

Diana: Right, and then we are the crazy person because we then get on the email at 10 o’clock at night. “The following is what my daughter perceives happened today.” I realized because sometimes I would get emails where they were assuring me that wasn’t the case, I know that’s not the case. I’m relaying to you that that’s what she thinks happened and so please have some compassion tomorrow when you see her again, love up on her, and those kinds of things. You really do come across as the crazy parent because A, they don’t see that and B, as we exhibited, they get late-night seemingly insane emails from a parent.

Tammy: Right, and they’re not seeing what you’re going with your child. I just think there are so many levels of what you just said that’s so important  – that it’s invisible, and we do sound hysterical a lot of the times. But ultimately this is the life of our kid on the line. So, of course, we feel that way, right?

Diana: Yes, and I think that every– well, I want to say teacher but it probably goes beyond that and society, but people who are part of a system should be forced to watch like a documentary or receive some basic level of training on some of these things that they might not know. Because I think if you saw it you wouldn’t question me anymore. You’d be like, “Holy God, that was awful”.

Tammy: It’s not like what it looks like on TV right. I always joke I wish my son had TV autism or TV bipolar, or TV something because it’s done in a half hour and wrapped up then nicely, everything’s solved, right?

Diana: Yes.

Tammy: In real life, it doesn’t feel that.

Diana: Or it goes in one direction on TV. That’s another thing that I would say to people who don’t live this journey, something that I can share is, “Please don’t assume that there is a trajectory and we’re moving across like in one direction. How are things going is a minute-to-minute if not day by day conversation, and so please forgive me when I seem frustrated”. If you say to me, “Well, she seemed like she was so much better. She seemed like she was feeling better”. She did. That was two days ago.

Tammy: I think that’s so important too because as a caregiver isn’t that disruptive and hard to plan and all that because you never know what the day’s going to bring. It’s not like you can say, “We passed this phase, now we’re here”. It’s constantly coming from different directions.

Diana: I have said is like chasing a chicken around a barnyard. That is the movement, it is every single way. Her dad texted me because he was out of state and he had been gone a few days. He said, “How is she doing?”, and I said, “Lots of different ways. You missed four whole days, she has had 18 different plateaus”

Tammy: “In the last two seconds or, yeah.” No, I think that’s really important because it does change constantly. So, as you think about the journey going on with your child, what has really been a barrier to getting the help your child needed or something you tried that just didn’t work in your case that might be helpful for people to know that this was a barrier?

Diana: There have been a lot of barriers and since it did start when she was very young and progressed through these years, and became more discernible to the untrained eye, so I would say some of the barriers along the way were her dad and I. Like our lack of understanding what was really going on and always well-intentioned but sometimes probably detrimental plans that we did. I have a background in behavioral health, so we did a lot of like charts and if-then and first-then and I’ll know you’re ready when this. We have always wanted to be helpful but haven’t always known what the hell we were doing.

Then at the point where we were getting– she had a physical and her blood pressure, she was a little girl, off the charts. They said, “She does seem to have an amazing amount of anxiety. We were given an eye test and she seems to be having like a panic attack. We better bring her back in a week because that’s really not healthy for her to have that high of blood pressures”, so when she came back in a week and they just did a blood pressure and they were taking more of a mental health approach, they referred us for psychiatry at that time because of the high level of anxiety that they saw just at the physical. It was something that did not work. It was a bad fit. It was a psychiatrist with no bedside manner, it was awful.

I have some background in this area and I will say it was awful. So, that was really limiting  – medical appointments that are a trigger for her.

Tammy: That’s not easy in this situation.

Diana: Yes, and you get the person to the appointment and then it blows up also, it was not good. So, that kept us from getting medical intervention for a whole another a year because that went so poorly, and her dad felt like, “this is– you know what I’m talking about, which is that she doesn’t have a mental health issue. So let’s stop coming at her with it and stop projecting things onto her.” That was something– school is something that hasn’t worked and it hasn’t worked for a long time but we’ve thrown a lot of things at it. Seventh grade was where it really hit the fan, and we realized she could not handle it and she’s breaking down every single day.

We dual-enrolled her and then after winter break had to just pull out entirely and home-school, but during that time we also were able to get her therapy and medication because it was becoming so abundantly clear that she needed more intervention, and that was seventh grade. Then in ninth grade again she went to school in eighth grade and it did work. She was on medication things seemed to be going pretty well and she had learned the building in the system which was doing well in the seventh grade. But then in ninth grade when she’d make another transition and another change just the school anxiety just really ramped up and to the point where now she is home-schooled and she’s not in the public school system because they just don’t have what she needs there, and she cannot deal with the many levels of stress.

Tammy: Can you talk a little bit about that because when it comes to children’s mental health as opposed to adults and I’m sure this is true for adults but not at the same level, kids are going through a lot of changes. You mentioned like structural changes, huge changes from elementary to junior to high school, and what your days like and what your life’s like, and your social world is like. But physically, our kids are changing immensely between childhood, adolescence puberty so their bodies are changing. So, sounded like your daughter was doing well with medication and then she wasn’t, and that seems typical for a lot of families I know. Something works and then all the sudden it doesn’t. I know that happens to adults but I think for children when you’re going through so many physical changes, social changes at such a phenomenal level it just feels like you’re constantly starting over again. Is that sound right or?

Diana: Yes. That’s actually been an added layer to this struggle. Starting in ninth grade she became med non-compliant, which was a very big hurdle. We had allowed her to go off her medication. She was doing really well in eighth grade and felt that she didn’t need it and so that was done with our blessing but then in the 9th grade when she was really struggling, my mantra has always been, “I’m not saying you have to go to school. I’m saying that everybody who is mentally and physically healthy is at school today. If you’re not we need to be looking at what’s underneath, and that’s what we need to be doing. I don’t need you to go to school just to have geography of being in that building. I need us to look at why you can’t feel like you’re successful there and why it is putting you past a point to be there”, and so these are the things that we can do.

She just felt like nothing ever works. It doesn’t help anyway and so she was on– we got her to do a medication that, of course, this is I’ve heard so many people share this journey and frustration, that medication did not work, and so for her, it was fueling the, “I told you nothing works”. We had our four to six weeks, went off of it and then the next medication that was prescribed she just was never compliant enough for us to realize if it was working or not. That was a huge struggle and then in a meantime, I think what am I going to do and she’s missing school, and again we’re going back to our behavioral things which were not the point. It was not the point in her ninth through a tenth-grade year.

Another thing that we didn’t identify was depression was starting to take over anxiety and we were still considering it to be anxiety, though the medication often is the same. But the way I might approach things with her, recognizing that it’s depression, not laziness or avoidance, that kind of thing. We’ve been our own worst enemy a few times and–

Tammy: Well you have to be gentle with yourself about that. First of all, everything you said about that, what I love about this podcast is I have parents who don’t have children’s mental illness go, that’s true for all parents too. Every parent messes up and tries a bit. We all learn as we go but here it’s really hard because as you’re saying you don’t know what’s working.

Diana: You feel like you’ve got to be …

Tammy: You don’t have a control, right?

Diana: Right.

Tammy: You can’t take control of your kid and say what’s working or what’s not.

Diana: Particularly with the medication, I just feel like I am putting pellets into a cage and hoping for the best. We’re on another new medication right now that we’re in the four to six weeks range, and that doesn’t appear to be helping either and then you have to decide if you want to up the dose or try something different and go another. In the meantime, it is very painful to be inside their skin and you feel rather helpless.

Tammy: It’s just hard to watch them suffer.

Diana: Yeah, and not everybody going back to the people who don’t live this day in and day out, and everybody sees that they are suffering. Most of our kids are amazing actors and actresses, and they want to be accepted and be part of a group and be normal.

Tammy: I would add to that that most of our kids that have mental illness are incredibly strong. The strength it takes for them to do what they do is immense. If I’m hearing about your daughter and she must be an incredibly strong person to be able to make people think she’s just fine when she’s dealing with all that, it has to be really hard to get through.

Diana: Yeah, and she actually at a point last fall where she did sort of have a full breakdown, and that is nothing that I had seen before, and it was like someone broke a toy almost. Like she became monosyllabic and she is somebody who never left the house not looking on point, she shuffled around. When I would need to take her to appointments she would still wear her pajama bottoms and I’d have to hand her her shoes and the light behind her eyes had gone out and so I do think in that time. Also, she was incredibly strong because just staying here like was my main goal and because I could see that the weight of the pain was almost unbearable, and so at that time she couldn’t. She tried a couple times to leave the house and she had some friends who really hung- and like for being teenagers -they really hung in there and didn’t give up on her over the months. She did try to go out and see them a couple times and didn’t make it, but I was so proud of her for one time we got all the way to the door, all she had her hand on the door.

Tammy: Wonderful.

Diana: Yeah, and now she’s able to leave the house and go see her friends and things and–

Tammy: That’s great.

Diana: Yeah, so I think that there are little wins and you just have a different life, you celebrate different things.

Tammy: Absolutely, but it’s so important to celebrate them and recognize.

Diana: Yeah.

Tammy: Yeah, absolutely. So, what has worked well what in trying to get help for her things that have worked, that you’re like, “Thank goodness that that worked that way”?

Diana: I think having some background in this area was extremely helpful. Not that it helped me deal with her necessarily better but I knew people and I knew therapists, and I already had therapists that I had worked with that I knew had done an amazing job or did good work and put some really challenging kiddos. I felt like I’m very lucky that I was able to handpick because finding a fit is a huge part and you can have a talented therapist and a person who’s willing to do therapy and have that not been a fit. I feel like that’s been a blessing and that has really worked well like being able to find providers, and I feel like one of the things that was working well and I’ve changed my tack duck on it, but I first was thinking when she had that I want to say break down that I would share that with people because I have felt strongly I have to be part of reducing stigma. Now I am completely backtracking from that because in order to reduce stigma you sometimes need a community or a society that’s more educated and more well informed, which is why when you ask to what I talk to him what would I say because this is not mine to tell necessarily. It’s my daughter’s and she doesn’t want it shared and now I can kind of see why because people don’t understand, and they sell her short or sell us short or feel like, “We might be wrong in some way”.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Diana: It’s- it’s very challenging, and so that is something that has worked well too is my daughter. My daughter is a fighter and so having her has worked well.

Tammy: Sounds like she’s awesome?

Diana: She is.

Tammy: I think that sometimes really hard is when the world doesn’t get to see how awesome our kids are because maybe they can’t get out the door, or maybe you’re seeing a different side. You’re not seeing the true person, you’re seeing the illness or you’re not seeing anything. I think that’s the one thing we can say is, “Our kids are awesome – we get to yell that”.

Diana: And I recorded her too, often with me having fun, and she will tell me to stop or tease me, but I say “No”, I’m like, “This is you” and later she’ll ask for my phone and she’ll look at those videos and I want her to remember.” This is you too –  on the couch having a bad day, that’s not all you are – you are everybody you’ve ever been”.

Tammy: I like that. I like that one. So, right now because as we said it changes moment to moment to moment, in this moment do you feel like you’re swimming, drowning, treading water, how are you right now in this journey?

Diana: Right now I would say I’m treading water at best but that’s really me. I don’t know that my daughter has changed that much. I think that a couple of things maybe for me and my ability to just be copacetic has changed and maybe that’s just the ability to have long-standing care. It’s a lot different – my energy level now, than it was a couple of years ago. My daughter might be exactly the same but I might worry incessantly one day and be completely okay the next. I feel like I can’t leave her one day and feel like she’ll be fine the next.

Tammy: Let’s talk about that because I feel like we don’t honor enough that we too are human beings with emotional lives. Sometimes when you’re so busy taking care of a child who has emotional struggles, we’re so busy trying to help them with their emotions that we don’t allow us, ourselves,  you know what I mean? Like we’re just, “Okay, I’ll take care of myself later. I’m just taking care of your emotions”. It’s some days I can deal with my son’s issues on some days they really get to me, and he might be exactly the same both days.

Diana: Yeah, one hundred percent, I think that one thing that’s important is getting some sort of therapy and care for your own self and self-care, and I have neglected that a little bit. I have done it and not done it over the years but–

Tammy: You’re not alone there.

[laughter]

Diana: But that is definitely something that I would recommend because you heal some, just being able to share things that it would not be productive to share with your family because it escalates some situations.

Tammy: Absolutely. You also said something that worked well for you that our listeners who may not have the benefit of being in a profession where they feel like they have that network, they can still network. Like through support groups, through the advocacy networks that you can create a network where you know people in the field. That’s very helpful to have that, and so that’s something to think about because I know if you don’t have that you’re like, “well where do I go?” but you can start trying to build that network of other families who’ve been through it, talk to their providers and get to know who’s out there, and who’s doing what. I don’t know if you agree with that or not? It just seems like you’re right knowing lots of people in this realm to be really helpful.

Diana: Yes, and I think that even if you don’t know anybody in most areas, there is NAMI or something along those lines that has a support group for family members and those can be so beneficial on so many levels. Not only are you feeling less isolated because you have somebody who shares your experiences and that can just feel affirming, but then you also have people who have tried 14 therapists and found one who is good, and that is a huge resource. So, I would strongly encourage that and have done that myself and it is something that I think we all need and deserve is to not feel alone.

Tammy: Absolutely because no one in this situation is alone.

Diana: But you can feel very much like that.

Tammy: It feels like it but when you look at the numbers it’s so common, which is so sad that we’re feeling alone when we’re surrounded by others who are feeling alone in the same reality. So, what is your self-care routine or more appropriate survival technique? What do you do to take care of you when things are getting rough. You mentioned some things that like yoga I can imagine really helps, like what do you do?

Diana: Yes. Well, I try to keep a good balance of things in my life and I actually was doing some volunteering things in the community. I’ve had to back away from that and again, those are things that can ebb and flow. Right now where my daughter is I’m not able to do that, but when you help you heal and you’re not so directed inwardly on my own issues and my own thing, and if you’re being of service to others, I think that it’s therapeutic. In my experience, it has been hugely therapeutic. It gets you outside of your own head and you’re doing something productive and you can feel good about that. So, that that has been and I’m sure it will be again and I enjoy doing that. Yoga, yes absolutely. I can tell sometimes if I started my day with yoga because when things come at me I react a little more even keeled.

Sometimes it is just indulging a little. I was in a ridiculously complex and challenging life space in right around between Thanksgiving and winter break, and the therapist that I was chatting with said, “What are you doing for your own self?” I said, “Well, this morning I had a fudge brownie and layered peanut butter on it, and I just enjoyed every morsel of that brownie. I just took that moment and really picking up on some of the things that are shared as part of strategies and coping strategies, and those kinds of supports, for people with mental health is also really good for us as well. Mindfulness is something that I would encourage everybody to look into because you can pull yourself out of a vortex that you might be slipping into because of your situation which is very real, but it doesn’t benefit anybody to just kind of lean into it or wallow.

Tammy: Absolutely, and that fudge brownie was real too?

Diana: Yes,

Tammy: So, it was okay to be with the fudge brownie for a while.

Diana: I was happy  – maybe bad for the hips but good for the soul.

Tammy: Absolutely, I love that. So, what’s your most laughable moment. Sometimes if we didn’t have laughter it’d be a lot harder to get through this. What makes you laugh about when you think of this journey?

Diana: I think one thing that was a laughable moment that is not necessarily laughable now, actually I guess it is. I didn’t realize that my daughter had started to self-medicate and that was tough because I felt like maybe there’s one thing we didn’t have going wrong. Surprise! So, when I first experienced that and she was under the influence and it actually led to a discourse that wouldn’t have probably otherwise have happened. I remember at one point things were very escalated on her end and she was yelling at me, and she said, “Why aren’t you yelling back? Why aren’t you fighting? You almost look like you’re smiling. What’s wrong with you?” and I said, “I’m just happy we’re finally talking”.

Tammy: [laughter] I love it. I bet that annoyed her though.

Diana: Well, right then, to be fair, that wasn’t out of the ordinary. It was actually that better out than in. Sometimes I think parents protect our children, and keep in mind that our children try to protect us, and they did. They perceive things as being good and bad even when we try and direct them not to, they don’t want us to necessarily see dark ugly things, and you need to, like I need to know that’s there because we can’t address it or fix it or get to the root, and pull it if I don’t ever even know.

Tammy: Thanks for saying that. I don’t think that’s something we’ve discussed yet and any of these podcasts but is so important, our kids do try to protect us. They don’t want us to know all the horrible things that are happening inside their heads and that they struggling what.

Diana: And that’s dangerous.

Tammy: It’s very dangerous.

Diana: And I can see not wanting people to know, and I’m sure it’s very vulnerable but you have to be able to let that out and give that some space too.

Tammy: Thank you so much for talking to us. I really appreciate it – you sharing your story with us.

Diana: Thank you.

[music background]

Tammy:  You have been listening to the Just Ask Mom series, part of the mothers on the frontline podcast. Copyrighted in 2018. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is “Olde English” written, performed and recorded by Flame Emoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health go to mothersonthefrontline.com or subscribe to Mothers On The Frontline on iTunes, Android, Google Play, Stitcher or Spotify. Mothers On The Frontline is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization that uses storytelling for caregiver healing and children’s mental health advocacy. We strive to reduce stigma, educate the public and influence positive policy change through our podcast series and storytelling workshops. We are currently working with Grinnell College to document and archive stories of lived experience with a school the Prison Pipeline, an issue importantly connected to children’s mental health and well-being. If you would like to support our work please visit our website and make a tax-deductible donation at mothersonthefrontline.com.

[music]

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Miss Diva on Raising a Child with Schizoaffective Disorder, Just Ask Mom Podcast Series, episode 16

logo: purple lotus flower with white figure inside holding arms up on black background

In this episode, we listen to Miss Diva from the USA. She speaks about raising a son with schizoaffective disorder, bipolar, ADHD, PTSD, and Seizures in the African-American Community. Please be advised that this interview contains content about domestic abuse and may be upsetting for some audience members.

Transcription

Women’s Voice: Welcome to the “Just Ask Mom” podcast. Where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illnesses. Just Ask Mom is a Mothers on the Frontline production. Today we will listen to Ms. Diva from the USA. Please be advised that this interview contains some content about domestic abuse and may be upsetting for some audience members. This interview was recorded at the 2017 National Federation of Families for Children’s Mental Health Conference in Orlando Florida. During this particular recording, you can hear noise in the background from another event in the hotel. Please don’t let these noises distract you from Ms. Diva’s story.

Dionne: I’m sitting here with you and I wanna say thank you very very much…

Miss Diva: You’re welcome.

Dionne: …for agreeing to be a part of our podcast. Can you please introduce yourself?

Diva: My name is Diva and I am called Diva because I have been through so much in my forty-four years on this earth until I feel like there is nothing anybody can do or say to break me anymore. And I feel like you can try but I’m always gonna  come out victorious because the Diva is always going to hustle – get it done for her and her children no matter what. If she has a man or she don’t have a man, she don’t need a man to make it happen. And that’s me.

Dionne: Thank you. Well, tell me Ms. Diva, tell us a little bit about who you are and who you were, what are your passions? Who are you outside of and in addition to being a momma.

Diva: Oh my gosh! First of all, I honestly didn’t wanna become a mom. I was scared that I wasn’t gonna be able to give my children the love that they needed like they were supposed to have. Because when I was a kid I felt like I wasn’t loved passionately enough as a child suppose have been loved by their parent and encouraged enough because my parents didn’t give me that encouragement. They gave my younger sisters that encouragement but as for me, they didn’t do that. But when I had my children I was like, “Wow!”. When I had my first child I was like. “Ohh,hhuuhh!”, you know, like “Oh, No!”. And then had my second child after I am married. And then my third and my fourth. And then I was like, “Oh no, I’m a mom!”. So I was like, “Okay, I gotta step my game up since I’m about ten thousand times more than what they did.”. So my goal was to always let my kids know that: “I love you and there is nothing that you cannot do. I will never stand on the way of your creativity. The word ‘can’t’ and ‘I won’t’ will no longer be in existence for you all.” My kids used to think I was mean because I used to give them books to read. So, they was like, “This is a punishment”. No, it’s not though my kids one of the–it wasn’t. I have been through domestic violence, my kids have seen that. Still legally married to the man. He tried to kill me and my kids. So we are still standing the risk. That’s why I say I’m that diva because I refuse to allow you to dominate my life because if I let you dominate my life, it’s like you still have your hand in my life. “Oh no!”, because I’m going to do what I need to do. I have four children: 24, 18, 16 and 14. I have an 18 year old. He has a bipolar schizoaffective disorder and the alphabet. And once–you know what I mean when I say the alphabet.

Dionne: Yes. The alphabet soup of diagnosis, yes.

Diva: And sometimes he has his good days, sometimes he has his bad days. And it’s like, “Whoa, wait! Hold up!”, and sometimes he wants to listen to me, sometimes he don’t. But he’s at the conference with me. He’s doing good. When we walk past to come here, he was sitting in a class listening paying attention. So it’s like, that was a first.

Dionne: He stopped by our table several times ’cause he likes the candy. [laughter]

Diva: Yes [laughter] Oh it’s like you’re trick or treating huh? [laughter]

Dionne: [laughter] We talked a couple of times.

Diva: Yes, So he’s a friendly young man…

Dionne: Yes he is.

Diva: …but the thing is, I found out he was–he had these diagnosis when he was six. So, being of African-American descent, in our culture we do not talk about mental illness. It’s like the big elephant in the room and if you do something about it, “Oh no, just whoop ’em!”. Whippings do not cure everything. Then it’s the next one–oh I’m going to pray it out, Oh no, pray that God gives me the strength to endure what I’m about to go through. Pray that God gives him a stable mind or me  – so I won’t go crazy and hurt this child. Because there’s a lot of times when they say things that they don’t mean and you feel like it’s directed at you and they’re just taking out their anger. Because when they do it you like, “Oh, did you just lose your mind!” and you be wanna ready to–you be ready to like, “Oh, you know what, it’s battling time. You ‘bout to go in the corner and the fight. Put your gloves on”. So, and I tell my parents all the time, “If God didn’t want them to have the doctors here to help us, he would never had put them in place.”. He will not put the psychiatrist, the therapists, made these people that have the medicines so we can help them. And all the other people, all the little people, like these conferences, to help give us the knowledge of what we can do with – outside of–when everybody else has gone home asleep, what coping skills you can use to help your child, son or daughter, go into–when they enter that poppin’ off mode. So my son–’cause I have two sons. One has ADHD-PTSD and he has suffered from seizures. Then my older son, he’s the one that has the main ones but my younger son, he’s introvert but he’s a smarty. And he just don’t wanna go yet and it’s like I tell my kids, I gave them with the analogy when they were young. I’m the head of the household so I’m the head. My oldest daughter is my right hand. And my son that’s 18, he’s my left hand and my 16-year-old, he’s my right leg and my 14-year-old is my left leg. I say, so if anything happens to one of you guys, my limbs are obsolete to me. So I said I need every last one of you guys to do what you gotta do because if you get hurt, get killed, something happens, my limbs would no longer work the same.

Dionne: Alright, that’s a beautiful analogy.

Diva: And they’d look at me like, “What?”. I said, “come here”. So my son just said, “What?”. I pinched him, he said, “Ouch!”. I said, “That’s how I feel” If something happens to you –  and your my left arm. So if you’re gone, my pain is there. And until you come back in one piece, whole, my pain goes away. And he was like, “Oh, got it!”. I was like, “Thank you.”

Dionne: That’s a wonderful analogy of just how–I don’t think our kids realize how much they are literally, a part of us.

Diva: Yes. yes. And I feel like–I used to tell my son when he was younger when he needed help when he was in school I said, “Baby, look at it this way. I need for you to get your slinky–look at the slinky in your mind. When you had the slinky here at both hand level, you’re fine. Once that slinky starts sliding down, you feel like you need help, you get that help.” I said, “Once that slinky fall all the way down, you’re out of control, you can’t get that help no more.” I said, “Once you get it started moving up and down, you can get the help.” I said, “But once it falls and go all the way across the room, there is no coming back from that. He was like, “Okay, ma.”. So a couple of days ago he said to me, ” Ma, I’m trying to be that slinky.’ And I have the strangest look on my face like, “Okay babe”.

Dionne: He heard you.

Diva: But this analogy was given to him when he was six, seven years old.

Dionne: I know. He heard you. He heard it. That’s awesome.

Diva: And it’s like it’s still there.

Dionne: Yeah!

Diva: And he was like, “Mom, I’m still that slinky.” And I’m like, “Okay love. When you need that help, you tell me.”

Dionne: Yeah

Diva: Because if he hear voices, he tells me.

Dionne: That’s great.

Diva: He’s like, “Ma, they’re talking.” And I’m like, “Okay babe,” because I’m one of those parents, I listen. Because when I was a kid, it was be seen and not heard.

Dionne: I see.

Diva: And I was raised up in the church and, people ask me, “Why don’t you go to church anymore?” Because the people that raised me, I feel like they’re the biggest hypocrites there is. Because you tell me to do as you do, do as you say but not as you do.

Dionne: Right.

Diva: But then the whole entire time, you’ve been lying to me. You’ve been hiding stuff. You’ve been sneaking around! What do you want me to do? How do you want me to take this and God said, “Do not do this,” and you did it! So you want me to feel this way? So, I tell my mom, we were talking about something and I said, “Ma,” and she was just, I had to you know, “Ma!” She was like, “What?” I was like, “Look. For everything that you come at me in the Bible with, we’re going to come back with you on this one right here!” She just said,” Lord.” Yes! So she said, “What?” I said, “The Bible tells you, children obey your parents and the Lord.” And then it comes again, children obey your parents and the Lord, for this is right that that days may be long upon the Earth.” I said, “This is what the scripture your parents hate!” Should parents, “Provoke not your children to wrath!” I said, “Woman, what are you doing to me?” And she said, “Uh, shut up and get off my phone.” I said, “No, you’re provoking me to wrath! I mean, you’re provoking me!” I said, “So, you are not listening to what the Bible say.” I said, “I told you, you that scripture!”

Dionne: So does that translate ever with your kids? What I’m hearing you talk about is, the way in which you want to raise your children differently than the way you were raised.

Diva: Because I have. Like I have a 24-year old. At 20, I had her. She has gone to nursing school, no kids.

Dionne: Go on.

Diva: They told her she was going to be a dropout. She’s going to have a house full of kids and I told them, “Hold up. Don’t put that into my child’s life. We don’t speak that in someone’s child’s life.” Because I always told my children, “Be the best at whatever you do. If you’re going to be the best bum, be the best bum you’re going to be,” and that’s how I’ve always been with my kids. I always told my kids, “Be the best you.”

Dionne: Good.

Diva: Be the best whatever it is you’re going to be. Be the best whomever you’re going to be. Don’t let anybody stop you. Don’t let anybody tell you how far you can dream. Don’t let nobody get in your way. I said, “If you feel like I’m getting in your way, be like Mom, I need you to move!” “I will get out your way!” I said, “But I’m here. I am going to forever be your cheerleader until God takes me away.” Because I tell my kids, “I’m going to push you for the better. I’m not going to push you down. If I see you slip, I’m going to help you pick you up.”

Dionne: So with that in mind, what would you say has been the greatest challenge in you getting help or raising your children around their mental health diagnoses and their mental health challenges?

Diva: Getting the help from the community, knowing where to go in the community that offers the help where we live.

Dionne: Okay.

Diva: And when I found the FIA, it says what it is on the card.

Dionne: Okay.

Diva: I just don’t want to say it because it will say where I’m from.

Dionne: Yes, I see it.

Diva: But Miss Harrison, she’s awesome. She’s been God sent.

Dionne: Good.

Diva: Because like my son was put into a transition  – he got arrested. DHS did nothing. They didn’t even show up. So Miss Tammy was there with me. We went and his attorney said, “Miss Diva, the Judge say, he can go home. Would you take him home today?” “Sure will!” But I’m like, I’m not feeling like I can stay in jail –no.

Dionne: Yeah.

Diva: So, because I learned something when I was growing up, I’ve learned that you’re going to have 10 children. Each one of them have a different personality.

Dionne: That would be true.

Diva: Each one of them have something different to offer, like you have 10 fingers, not one finger look alike. Each nail on your finger, one might be longer than the other. One might does more than the other finger can do because each one of my kids give me a different strength. Like my 18-year old, he really pulled out of me that I can go above and beyond.

Dionne: How does he do that?

Diva: Because he lets me know, “Ma,” with his diagnosis, I go above and beyond to find out where I can go to get more help for him, what’s there for him, what options are there for him because normally, when I was coming up, mental health issues was never talked about.

Dionne: Yeah.

Diva: It was just like, “Get that rug and broom, sweep, sweep, gone.” You never talked about it. So, when I got my kid’s help after fleeing my abusive husband, it’s like me and my kids develop and play.

Dionne: I see.

Diva: My own sisters, biological sisters at that. One, she’s his godmother.” He asked her for a game. Why lie to a child?

Dionne: Like?

Diva: “I have to take care of some bills” “But I’m watching you on Facebook post live pictures going live, posting pictures of you and my other sister in the Bahamas. What? Did you just lie to this child?” And he called me the aunty – huh –  I haven’t talked to her honey.

Dionne: I see.

Diva: So, when you have to lie to your child about somebody else lying, I hate lying to my kids.

Dionne: Yeah.

Diva: That’s one thing me and my kids promised that we wouldn’t have to because I had not lied to my kids about anything that is important to them. Like that kind of lie, I fell like that’s not full lie.

Dionne: Right.

Diva: But it’s still a lie.

Dionne: But in terms of their diagnosis and treatment?

Diva: And then you have to realize, they are more sensitive than the other kids because the other kids can handle it. Their diagnosis, they can’t! Because they’ll be like, “What? They lied to me? They what?”

Dionne: Right.

Diva: They spaz out and go off, do a whole bunch of other stuff.

Dionne: Right.

Diva: It’s like, you would have to tread lightly with their diagnosis.

Dionne: So, what you say in addition to learning how to talk to your children, and you’re doing a wonderful job of —

Diva: Thank you.

Dionne: — just giving them and I mean, your son is one of few people that I met and so, of giving them this sense of confidence and something stable of love.

Diva:  I constantly tell my children, “I love you.” I constantly let them know, “I got your back.”

Dionne: Good.

Diva: I constantly say, “Hey, remember who’s here. She’s here. I need her. I’m here. Because like, right now I’m sick and my youngest is here with me and even though he has his moments, I don’t care what he is going through. You say something is wrong with his Momma, he snapped. “What? You what, what’s going on with my Momma?” He is going to find out what is wrong with his Momma and try to make his way back to his Momma because like one of his siblings was like, “Momma can’t get her shoes on. She is so swollen she can’t even move.”

Dionne: Right.

Diva: So he came upstairs and was like, “Momma, let me in.” I’m like, and I saw my youngest son. I was like, “Open the door for your brother.” So he came in the room and put my shoes on for me.”

Dionne: Oh.

Diva: So when I say my kids have my back just as much as I have theirs, when I think they don’t have my back and I feel like they don’t me pay attention, they do. They pay me a world of attention.

Dionne: That is wonderful!

Diva: And I feel like they don’t but they do.

Dionne: That’s good.

Diva:  Because like my 24 year old. Sometimes I feel like she don’t have my back, but she does.

Dionne: That’s Wonderful. And that’s so important.

Diva: Cause I had asked her, I said, “If anything happens to me,” – she was like, “Ma, you don’t even have to worry about it. Them three – I’m already on it – I already know I got to raise them.”

Dionne: Wow.

Diva: She said, “you ain’t got to write it down, I already know. What my job is. To make sure them three is good.” I said, “You got my back!” She was like, “Oh, no doubt,” she’d say, “you know  even though we argue and fuss, you are my only mama.” She’d say, “You’ve always been there.”

Dionne: Wow.

Diva: So, I’ve always made sure my kids – and always will make sure my kids –  know that I love them, even if I can’t talk – my kids know sign language, so we tell each other “I love you” in sign language. So we like, we go this way and touching your face. Because when he was in court I did this and touched my face  – and he was like …

I used to be a teacher. And when I did Scholastics, I wouldn’t send all of the Scholastics home with the kids. I’d be like oh, I can use this at home. So my kids know a little sign language. I am like, because I told them “it is good to know another language.” And they were like “Sign language? What?” I was like, “What is at the end of that word  – it’s ‘language’ – It is another language.”[laughter]

Dionne: So what is your self-care routine – how do you take care of you?

Diva: Oh, gee. [laughter] I love music. I love going to the gym when I’m not sick. I used to be a size 24, now I’m a size 18.

Dionne: Oh, wow.

Diva: And I started in the gym in January, so when I turn 44 in July, there was a dress that I was trying to get into  [snaps three times – laughter] “Nailed it!” [laughter] So, I have been out of the gym for a month because my Fibromyalgia’s been acting up – but oh she mean – will get back in the gym. But I do talk to – I do have my own therapist, my own shrink. I talk to her because if I don’t take care of me, I can’t take care of them.

Dionne: Exactly.

Diva: Because I learned that the hard way. Cause I had a therapist when we lived in the middle of the state. You have to take care of you first. If you don’t take care of you, you can’t take care of them. And that’s where a lot of parents stop. They only seek help for the children, they are there for themselves as well.

Dionne: Right.

Diva: Listen, if you don’t seek help for yourself and get educated for yourself,

To know what is going on with yourself and your child, you will never be able to advocate for your child.

Dionne: Right

Diva: The Best. Because you are your child’s best advocate. And you are your child’s best voice, because if you don’t get that education on what’s going on, and read what they put in front of you, instead of just signing…you’re going to miss that. Because with me, I learned that the hard way. So I do girl days with my gym buddy.

Dionne: Good.

Diva: As you see my nails there.

Dionne: Oh yeah, You have  – nobody can see this but I can see it – you have fabulous nails.

Diva: Thank you. And they are mine. I just go get the acrylic overlay and get the nails…

Dionne: They are gorgeous.

Diva: Thank you. I have my green nails for mental health.

Dionne: yes. Awareness.

Diva: yes – mental health awareness – and the rest of them are black and I have white one blue  – I am not going to tell you which finger is blue.

[laughter]

Dionne: We can’t say that –even on the podcast –

[laughter]

Dionne: But it stands out.

Diva: Yes!

Dionne: My son calls that his expression finger.

Diva: Yes – and it is mine, because my 24 year old be like, “Ma, Ma”, she be like, “yes, I did”. [laughter] But yes, I do my music, I do my girls day with my gym buddy, either that, we go get our nails done, we go out to eat, get a drink.

Dionne: That’s great. Self-care is so important. So, that’s self-care. How do you advocate for yourself?

Diva: Oh. Umm..

Dionne: Not for your kids, but for you.

Diva: For me, I am a very soft-spoken person. And a lot of people think because I have this little girl look, because I everyone thinks I am in my twenties or thirties

Dionne: You are very young-looking.

Diva: And everyone thinks I am a little girl because I look so young, I’m like, “Don’t let it fool ya.”

Dionne: That’s cause your youthful.

Diva: [laughter] Thank you. And I tell people, “Don’t let it fool you.” Cause I’m very knowledgeable about what I want and what I need. And if I’m telling you what I need, and you’re not helping me to get what I need, I am going to go around you or above you to get what I need.

Dionne: I see.

Diva: And if I have to go through you to get what I need, I will do that too. So, my needs – I will do that too.

Dionne: You will advocate for your needs. So, in all of this, and this journey that you’ve been on, this journey that you are still on, if you had to point out some of your most laughable moments. Moments where you just have to sit down and just laugh about life. What you say is your most laughable moment is? So far?

Diva: Ooh. [laughter] I was in one state where we lived in, the principle kept saying, “we have done all we can do for your son.” And he kept saying, “your son”. He didn’t know my son’s name.

Dionne: I see.

Diva: So, the table was about as long as this table. And I looked at the table, and I didn’t see the assistant principle. I said, “Do you know anything about my son?” And he looked at me, “picked up a pile of papers . I said, “He don’t know jack squat about my son.”

Dionne: Right.

Diva: And he looked at me and everybody looked, cause I’m a soft-spoken person, so my voice raised, and he was like …I said, “All you know is what you are reading on that paper,” I said, “Do you not know my son is a little comedian at times?” I said, “Do you not know my son’s name is dadadada – not ‘this child’?”

[laughter]

Diva: And I said, “You don’t even work with this child.” I said, “Could you please bring in your person that works with my child?” And he was like, “Can you please get her?”  Because I said, “if we keep sitting here we’re not going to have this meeting. “

Dionne: Right.

Diva: And he looked at me like I was crazy. And they were talking and I was sitting there. And he got up and went and got her and she came in and sat down and the meeting continued. And it was so funny because, when we were done, my advocate was like, “I can’t believe you did that.”

[laughter]

Diva: And I was like, she was like – wow – “Silence was golden with you.” [laughter] And she was like, “I can’t believe I heard you yell. She said, I have never heard you yell. She said, “yeah, you would be a great peer specialist.” I was like, “who said I wanted to be.”

Dionne: Is there any particular organization, since were at a major conference, that you would like to give a shout out to [can hear writing on paper ] Oh Ok. Can I say the organization? I won’t say the state.

[This portion was deleted because it was not possible to identify the organization without identifying the state.]

Dionne: Thank you very, very much Miss Diva!

Diva: You’re so welcome!

Dionne: And this was, and I always say this, but I totally mean it, it was eye opening, it was inspiring, and you are amazing.

Diva: Thank you.

Dionne: Thank you.

[music]

Female Voice: You have been listening to “Just Ask Mom”, copyrighted in 2018 by Mothers on the Frontline. Today’s podcast host was Dionne Bensonsmith The music is “Olde English”, written, performed, and recorded by FlameEmoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to MothersOnTheFrontline.com or subscribe on  on Itunes, Adroid, Google Play, or Sticher.

 

 

 

Just Ask Mom, episode 17: “It doesn’t have to be this way”

logo: purple lotus flower with white figure inside holding arms up on black background

In this episode, we listen to Melissa, a mother from rural Iowa, share her story about raising a son with severe depression. Please be advised that this interview discusses suicide and may be triggering for some of our audience. (See below for transcription.)

Suicide Resources:

The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is 1-800-273-8255

The Lifeline provides 24/7, free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals.

Trans Lifeline – Trans Lifeline is a national trans-led organization dedicated to improving the quality of trans lives by responding to the critical needs of our community with direct service, material support, advocacy, and education. Our vision is to fight the epidemic of trans suicide and improve overall life-outcomes of trans people by facilitating justice-oriented, collective community aid.

The Trevor Project – The leading national organization providing crisis intervention and suicide prevention services to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer & questioning (LGBTQ) young people under 25.

You Matter -This is a safe space for youth to discuss and share stories about mental health and wellness, created and administered by the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. You Matter blog posts are written by a rotating Blogger Council of individuals between the ages of 13-24 that are passionate about suicide prevention and mental health.

 

Transcription of Just Ask Mom, episode 17

(0:00)

(music fades in)

Woman Speaker: Welcome to the Just Ask Mom podcast where mother share their experiences of raising children with mental illness. Just Ask Mom is a Mothers on the Frontline production. Today, we will listen to Melissa. A mother from rural Iowa, share her story about raising a son with severe depression. Please be advised that this interview discusses suicide and maybe triggering to some of our audience.

(music fades out)

Tammy: Hello. Can you tell us a little about yourself before or outside of parenting, what do you love? Who are you?

Melissa: My name is Melissa and I’m a mom here in rural Iowa. I farm with my husband in a small community. I love the environment. I love watching our children grow. Just being outdoors, reading, that kind of thing.

Tammy: You like watching lots of things grow, it sounds like.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tammy: That’s awesome. I want you to pretend that you’re talking to peers of kids that are going through mental health difficulties and their parents. What would you like them to know about your family’s experiences?

Melissa: I would say that our experience as parents with a child with debilitating mental illness – would be to just maybe ask, be inquisitive. Try and find out, not in a nosy type of a way but just– so maybe you can learn a little bit more about the situation and not just shut the doors essentially because it’s very challenging on a daily basis. When you’re feeling the doors slammed by parents or peers that don’t necessarily know the story, it just makes life that much harder.  (2:00) My child has a lot to give to this world. He’s beautiful and he’s kind but he just struggles with certain things. But I think his life as a youth could have been much easier if some closed doors would have remained open.

Tammy: You bring up a really good point because a lot of times, if our children are sick, let’s say if they have a physical illness or the measles or what have you, people would naturally say, “Oh, how is your son doing?” Right?

Melissa: Right.

Tammy: They would naturally ask. Maybe people are afraid to ask us or talk to us. They shut down or shut us out sometimes. Is that right?

Melissa: Yeah. I would say that. I know it is not the exact same thing but I spend a lot of time thinking about it. I kind of wonder if on some level, it’s how people who are diagnosed with AIDS in the 80’s feel.

Tammy: Yeah.

Melissa: So instead of feeling that love and that warmth when they were diagnosed with something. They were judged and I feel that very much in the mental health space here. In a lot of ways, it’s how the kids and the patients are treated. How many cardiac patients or cancer patients do you know that need to go from one doctor to another? And they’re transported in the back of a sheriff’s car in handcuffs.

Tammy: Exactly.

Melissa: That’s how they’re transported.

Tammy: When they’re most vulnerable and in the most pain.

Melissa: Right.

Tammy: Right.

Melissa: They’re actually taking– yeah. They’re handcuffed. I know my son had a really hard time one time because he didn’t even have a seat belt on so that gave him anxiety. The person was driving and on his phone. I think you just feel very out of (4:00) control, anyway; when you have something like this.

Tammy: That’s a really good point. Even when you think about all the years, all the trying to help your child, what has been a barrier to getting the help your child needed? Something that– it’s a barrier or just didn’t work.

Melissa: His situation is very severe. I think some of the barriers that exist are constant therapists that are a good quality. When you’re living in a small space, people come and go. There’s a high burnout rate.

Tammy: So consistency–

Melissa : Consistency

Tammy : — really no consistency.

Melissa: There’s a very little consistency but I would say the same thing even with psychiatrists and getting meds. Because currently, the situation is now he’s an adult, and in the acute care setting you go into the hospital and– he has severe depression. We’ve been in and out of the hospital in an acute care setting maybe thirteen times in the last eight years and in the last six months probably five or six times.

Tammy: Wow.

Melissa: The problem is that continuity of care because you go into an acute care setting and his is suicide; just not wanting to live. You’ll see a whole new team of medical professionals and they’ll have an idea of what’s happening. He’ll go into another space and then they have their own idea and their own med recommendations. Unfortunately, for the patient you’re really not getting the (6:00) highest quality of care. I will say that our experience in the last six months has been even more challenging because he went to a hospital in Central Iowa. When I got there, they had actually prescribed him a medication that he had overdosed with.

Tammy: Already before they prescribed it?

Melissa: Right.

Tammy: Oh.

Melissa: But now that he’s an adult, I’m not given all of the information and so he was discharged with 90 pills that he had already OD’ed on as a youth. Two weeks later, he OD’ed on them and ended up in that same ICU. When I talked to the behavioral health staff, I said, “Did you look at his history?” She said, “We’re not required to do that. That’s not something that we automatically do.”

Tammy: That’s shocking when you think about.

Melissa: Well , And my reply to this person was, “Well, okay. So, if I came in here with a cardiac problem–”

Tammy: Yes.

Melissa: “–or you know some other chronic issue, would you not look at maybe some of my past history; even meds, anything? Just to make a better and more informed choice.” She said, “Well, on this floor, we just don’t do that. It’s not our policy.”

Tammy : Oh–

Melissa : In Iowa, we’re facing a really challenging time getting access to care maybe more so that other states. But — I just looked at the woman and I just said– no things have changed and we are seeing less and less help. I can see the acute care institutions are overwhelmed.

Tammy: Absolutely.

Melissa:  They are completely overwhelmed – but I looked at her and I just said– I think what I’m hearing is now these people don’t have access to chronic care –  which they don’t as an adult. (8:00) Currently the situation is that these people who are the most vulnerable are now going to you for an acute care setting, which is also very limited. We’re not even giving them that quality of care.

Tammy: But then even afterwards there’s no sub-acute to keep them well. They just send them up right back into acute again.

Melissa: Right. Right. Or discharge them and refer them again to outpatient services.

Tammy: You mentioned something that’s really important and you’re at that key point, you could speak to it. You dealt with it when your child was a minor and now he’s no longer a minor and your role shift whether you want it to or not, right?

Melissa: Right.

Tammy: Can you speak a little bit to that? When your child, well this differs too because sometimes it’s even 12 when they say now the kid gets to have more input but —

Melissa : Yeah. Yeah.

Tammy : – at least when you’re the mother of a minor child, you can tell the doctor, “Make sure to remember this. Remember this.” But you don’t get to do that anymore, do you? How does that work?

Melissa: You don’t get to do that. In fact, at this facility that I was just talking about, once this discharge happened. I wanted to talk to the psychiatrist. I said, “Okay. This is the second admittance. This is what’s happened and it doesn’t sound like you have all of the information.” And I’m like, “I would love to– just like a five-minute conversation to make sure that you have the entire picture to give you history.” He wouldn’t even talk to me. When you’re dealing with a young adult, I personally didn’t want to take away all of his choices and make all of those choices for him, but I did feel I could at least make sure that the physician heard the story and had all the pieces to make a more informed decision. Now, moving into adulthood, (10:00) I would say it’s much harder because you’re hoping that your mentally ill child is now providing them with all of that information.

Tammy: But how can they do that when they’re in crisis themselves? It’s an expectation that seem so unfair that the system places on that person.

Melissa: Right. Right. Because of laws and things, common sense doesn’t often times trump some of those things. My kid is smart. He’s been in a PMIC twice. He’s been in an acute care setting at least a dozen times and so he knows what a psychiatrist wants to hear.

Tammy: Right.

Melissa: And he doesn’t always want to be there. He can use those words to just get discharged.

Tammy: Right. For those who don’t know in Iowa a PMIC is a Psychiatric Mental Institution for Children  – because in different states it goes by different names, like  residential long-term care.  – So he knows what would to say, he knows how to play the game.

Melissa: Right.

Tammy: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tammy: What has worked in getting help for your child over the years? Is there something that was helpful, that would be good if there’s more of that? Is there something along the way that you thought was positive?

Melissa: I wish I had a lot of positive things to say today, I don’t.

Tammy: Yeah. That’s a reality sometimes.

Melissa: I just don’t.

Tammy: Yeah.

Melissa: I think — I think I’ve actually seen a decline in the quality of care in our state over the last ten years.

Tammy: It’s so discouraging.

Melissa: Yeah.  I think — When we had our first experience with the PMIC, that residential care for youth, the average stay was 10 to 15 months. Because of insurance and privatization of insurance and things like that, his (12:00) second stay was limited to I think six months. Even in month like two or three, they were trying to push your child out the door. A lot of kids could really use a higher quality of care, just a little longer period of time. In my son’s experience,  he was discharged quickly enough that he didn’t have time to test some of the medications, like an anti-psychotic that is pretty severe, and so they did that after discharge, because insurance tried to get him out the door. It just so happened that he had one of the life threatening reactions to the medication

Tammy: How frightening

Melissa: Yeah, he went into a cardiac arrest type of a deal. But that does not have to happen.

Tammy: No it doesn’t.

Melissa: That does not have to happen. He doesn’t have to have the means to commit suicide because they choose not to look at his health history.

Tammy: Right

Melissa: Right.

Tammy: And just to have the safe  place to do those med changes for this kind of severe case is imperative.

Melissa: Yeah,  I mean we are not talking about Tylenol here. These are some really, really serious medications.

Tammy: So we like to ask this because in our experience, in my experience, it changes moment to moment. In this moment, where are you – are you swimming, are your drowning, are you treading water? How are you feeling in this particular moment?

Melissa: I love that this is a question on here because I often times refer to this as like you are drowning. You know not all of the times you get to breath, but that is really kind of what it’s like. People are saying why (14:00) are you not advocating a little more, why aren’t you taking more time to do this or time to do that, and most people don’t know what is going on behind the scenes.

Tammy: Right, that it takes all that strength just to get that gasp of air before you go under again.

Melissa: Right, yeah, I can barely get up, put on my clothes, and I have two other younger children that I am trying to get out the door and smile for – just, you know – yay – it looks like Pollyanna – but I think that is a really good way of looking at it. There are a lot of parents out there – and this is really, really challenging –  and when we look at Public Schools, there are  a lot of things that could very easily be changed to help parents that feel this way. Yeah, that is why I would really like this episode to go out to all of you who do not have children with mental health issues to just give it a second thought on how it might feel to be in our shoes.

Tammy: Exactly. So what do you do to take care of you? What is your self-care routine? Because what I am hearing is  – and I can relate too – is that that it takes everything just to keep everything running, just to keep going. Is there something you can do to take care of you, or, and it may be more appropriate what is your survival technique – how do you keep breathing (laughter) because that is a big accomplishment?

Melissa: Yes it is! It totally is. We have dance parties some nights – we crank up the music – that’s exciting – with our younger kids. I like being outside, we do things like that. But the reality (16:00) of the situation is that there is not a lot of time for self-care, which I know that is the worst answer of all

Tammy: But it is a real one.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tammy: Yeah. As hard as all of this is, I bet there is at least one funny story that you have that makes you laugh a little bit. It is hard to think of one, but is there something that makes you smile when you think about “oh my gosh that was ridiculous!” – even if it is not funny but it is so ridiculous that it is s so surreal  – like “yes that happened”?

Melissa: Tammy, I am in such a bad place, I cannot think of anything funny.

Tammy: That’s ok. You don’t have to.

Melissa: Huh.

Tammy: If you can’t that’s ok too, because I think we need to hear that. We need to hear that it is not always ok – because when we are in that place – I know it’s hard  for me to turn on the radio or the TV and only hear stories about “Oh, they overcame this problem and it’s so great and they’re doing this” and that is all you hear. So when we are in that low spot, it feels like we are not allowed to be there. But so many of us are there, so often and we just keep it quiet. It is ok if you don’t have something to laugh at right now, that’s ok too.

Melissa: yeah

Tammy:  I don’t think you are going to be the only at this moment who is like, “I can’t think of anything.”

Melissa: Yeah, I don’t know. The last few weeks have been incredibly challenging for our family. If we had this interview a month and a half ago, maybe I could find something wonderful. But, the mental health crisis in this particular state – it’s bad. Like I said, in six months he has been admitted to an acute setting six times. (18:00) This last time was because he took one of our vehicles Facebook Live to suicide attempt by trying to go off the road, and had he not unbuckled his seat belt, he would have died. We did a committal and advocated for him to be in this acute care setting longer. They discharged him with another out-patient referral after six days – which has been what has happened for the last six months. That is a lot and it is very heavy. So I am not feeling overly hopeful.

Tammy: What gets me when I hear this story and so many others like it –  no matter what this would be horrendous to live through – but it just seems to make it so much worse when we know it doesn’t have to be this way in terms of help. There is a way to help this, to help people stay safe when they are in this place. No we don’t have a cure for severe depression that we can just wave a wand and make it go away, but we could as a society keep people safe and loved, and families loved and supported – instead of stigmatized – we could do that

Melissa: We could that.

Tammy: We could as a community put our arms around people going through this and hold them up

Melissa: Right

Tammy: I think that is what makes this more painful. Is it doesn’t have to be this way.

Melissa: It does not have to be this hard. No.

Tammy: It would be hard no matter what, but it doesn’t have to be this lonely, it does not have to be this much of a struggle (20:00) to just get people to listen.

Melissa: Right.

Tammy: I want to thank you for your courage for speaking today so people can listen and can hear about what it is really like, because I think we don’t’s say it publicly enough so people can hear. Because it is awful, but it doesn’t have to be this way.

Melissa: No, it does not. No. My only happiness would be, I guess if I can find a laughable moment, is if you can find a group of moms and get together once a month and tell your stories to each other because I think you need that – and you will come up with some doozies. That has been helpful.

Tammy: Support is so important. Just to have someone to be there with you, that, I think,  is so important.

Melissa: It is, but I have even seen in our small community where I know a couple of moms facing things similar to me and they don’t have anybody. Like you said we just need to put our arms around each other and it can get better.

Tammy: Thank you for being here today. I really appreciate you sharing your story with us. I really wish you and your child and your family all the warm, healthy wishes to make it through this difficult time so we can laugh together next time.

Melissa: We will laugh. Thank you.

Tammy: Thank you so much.

(music fades in)

Women Speaker: You have been listening to “Just Ask Mom”, copyrighted in 2018 by Mothers on the Frontline. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is “Olde English”, written, performed, and recorded by FlameEmoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to MothersOnTheFrontline.com or subscribe to “Mothers on the Frontline” on Itunes, Adroid, Google Play, or (22:00) Stitcher.

(music fades out)

[End]

 

Shanta, Mother, Clinician, and Advocate Shares her Story, Ask the Advocate Episode 4

logo: purple lotus flower with white figure inside holding arms up on black background

In this episode, we listen to Shanta, a mother of three, clinician, advocate and proponent of self-care. She discusses raising a daughter who struggles mood disorder and suicidal ideation.

Transcription

[Music plays]

Voice over: Welcome to “Ask the Advocate” where mental health advocates share their journey to advocacy and what it is meant for their lives. “Ask the Advocate” is a Mothers On The Frontline production. Today, we will listen to Shanta, a mother of three, clinician and advocate. This interview was recorded at the 2017 National Federation of Families for Children’s Mental Health Conference in Orlando, Florida. During this particular recording, you can hear music and noise in the background from another event at the hotel. Please don’t let these noises distract you from Shanta’s story.

Dionne: I want to say thank you very much–

Shanta Hayes: Thank you for having me.

Dionne: — for agreeing to the interview, especially, on the spot. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Shanta: Hi. My name is Shanta Hayes. I’m a MSW, a mother of three, an advocate and proponent of self-care.

Dionne: Oh, proponent of self-care. We have to talk about that. So, Shanta, tell us a little bit about your advocacy journey. Your mom-advocate journey.

Shanta: My middle daughter is 14 years old and we started noticing some things that were just not quite right or on par with her developmental milestones. And so, we took her to the pediatrician. “Oh, everything is fine and it’s well within norms.” And it was well within norms for a while until it wasn’t. And then it started to manifest itself behaviorally. But what we found out eventually was that she has a diagnosis of ADHD and major depressive disorder. Her diagnosis have led to some challenges in school for her and that’s how we first noticed it. We noticed she was having trouble getting her homework done and she was having trouble sleeping. She was having trouble just understanding the material and we thought, “Whoa! What’s going on?” So, we’ve moved from a diagnosis of ADHD and major depressive disorder to now. We also know she has some processing issues. So, after we visit the psychologist and we’ve done all the testing, it’s like, okay, she has some working memory issues and those things aren’t necessarily solved with medication or behavior plans. So, we’re now going to the neurologist and checking with the endocrinologist to make sure it’s nothing hormonal. But the thing is my advocacy journey is always making sure my child is first in knowing, letting her know that we will put her needs first but that we’ll also take into consideration how she’s feeling. So, therapy– we go to therapy for the depression. But she’s not a fan of talk therapy. So, we’re looking at other therapies now. It’s like, okay, drama therapy, play therapy because those are modalities that she’s really interested in. Because I need her to know that even though I’m the one making– setting the appointments, she’s the one going to the appointments. And if she’s not engaging in one way, we need to find a way that works for her. So, we talk to her and we ask her, “What do you want to do? How can we make this work for you?” So, I’m letting even my 14-year old child know that her health is in her hands.

Dionne: This is the self-care advocacy.

Shanta: So, I need her to be an advocate for her health. I want her to know that she has a say I think a lot of people don’t take that into consideration. I think we try and force a lot of different therapies or medications on our children and we’re not really listening. We need to be very aware of how we allow them to engage in their own medical mental health. So, that they don’t develop a sense of “I have no choice in this process”. And that’s how we work with her.

Dionne: So, you said you have a MSW. Did it precede or did this come along with your journey with your daughter? First of all, tell me a little bit about who you were before you became mom or what you do outside of being mom.

Shanta: Let’s see, mom is my first job. That’s my first job. I was one of those young ladies who took the 50’s track and now is schooling MRS . So, for those of you that don’t understand, I’m in school and I got married, right after. I started a family. And I was fine with that. I love being a mom. I love baking. I love taking my kids to the park. I love being their first teacher. We divorced a few years ago and I said, “Well, I get one degree but can’t really do anything with it.” I like history. I don’t want to teach. What can I do? And I’m really good with people and I learned that I was really good with people because as a mom, I was a part of a group called Mocha Moms, which was a support group for stay at home mothers of color. I was a Girl Scout leader. I was on the PTA. So, I’m constantly engaging with people and connecting them to resources. That’s what social workers do. I just happen to like to solve problems as well. So, clinical social work, being a therapist was my interest. So, everything happens in time. I believe that and my going back to school and my daughter’s diagnosis escalating coincided. So, it really came to a head, as I was in my advanced year placement at a psychiatric facility and I worked on an adolescent girls’ unit and my daughter’s behaviors were spiraling and we had to hospitalize her. So, being a clinician, working with adolescent girls and going home to an adolescent girl with her own issues was very challenging. But it also gave me some tools that a lot of other parents might not have had and some insight that you definitely don’t get. Like these are things that should happen when you have to ten-thirteen your child.

Dionne: Would you tell us about that? If you want to share, I’m just–

Shanta: So, the behaviors had gotten to a point where she was a harm to herself. And a psych nurse deemed it necessary to hospitalize her. And even though I felt I was technically trained and capable of handling this responsibility, I had to consider, it’s not just what I can do. She has two siblings at home. This takes a toll on your whole family. That’s a great deal of emotional stress. So, I took her to the Children’s Hospital, had her evaluated. They deemed it necessary. They transferred her to a facility. So, at the facility, they do stabilization. They do an assessment. They evaluate. The things you don’t necessarily think about are the outside factors, like who is outside your immediate family and do they really need to know? And how will they react? Because that was what we came across. My daughter was hospitalized around her sister’s sweet 16 and we had planned her party and family members are coming but our daughter wasn’t going to be there. So, we had some backlash and that was the time where it came to be, I know you mean very well. However, my job is to look out for the best interest of my child. And she could not be here today because she needed to take care of herself or she needed to be taken care of.

Dionne: And again the self-care. That’s a wonderful way to talk about this too. Self-care.

Shanta: It is. They have to recognize that you cannot say what she would have done in the situation because it’s very challenging. Like I said I wanted to keep her home but that would not have been in the best interest of other parties because I don’t want them to be stressed. Now, yes, it’s hard to know your sister is in a hospital. But it would be harder thinking, did I put away all the knives or did I put away all the medications or jump ropes because these are the things that we had to consider. Like, okay, because her thing was hanging herself. And that was the scary part because we think, she had a plan. My child had a plan. And she had means and she had access. So, if we don’t think to ask those questions, we might brush it off as it– she didn’t feel well. She’s down. She’s depressed and we still don’t take depression very well in communities of color. So, we did have to remove all items that might be a means to her. But I’m very glad that her time in the hospital, she was like, I really don’t– she’s– I really don’t think they did anything for me. But that was because the modality they used is not one that works for her. Talk therapy does not work for her. So, in the hospital where I worked, I used to play therapy a good deal with my clients and I had clients as young as 6 years old. So, sometimes that might be the best thing you can do is to just sit and play and observe and question. But I’m also a big proponent of bibliotherapy. Using books and stories to engage a client. So, that’s why going back to earlier, we’re looking for other methods that will suit her because I need her to see like, if one thing doesn’t work, that’s fine. We can try something else. There are lots of different things we can do. But we can’t do is we can’t stop.

Dionne: That’s important.

Shanta: So, yeah, I’m all about being mindful and taking a break. Breathing, being in the moment. But you get– you take that breath and keep going.

Dionne: So, in all of these different therapies in this journey with your daughter and then also– I mean having this background which is such a rich and important background, if you could pretend that you’re talking to and you can fill in this blank with “teacher”, “family members”, “church members”, if you go to church, “community members”, doctors” –  and if you could pretend that you’re talking to them, person or a group, what would you want them to know about your experience? You. Your experience parenting a child with a mental health challenge?

Shanta: I don’t typically tell people what I do just on meeting them. But I would like for people to approach me with the compassion that they would any other person of a parent going through a trauma, because having your child committed produces trauma because the mommy guilt that most of us feel sometimes is very real. If immediately you begin to question, what did I do wrong? Oh my gosh. Did I have one drink while I was pregnant? Did I go to that restaurant where they allow smoking? Did I not go over her ABC’s enough with her? Did I not check that fever when she was six months old? It can eat away at you and you question like the very– for me, the very core of who I am, which is being a mother. That is– I tell my children, you are my first job. You are my first priority. I’m going to do my very best to make sure you are able to take care of yourselves when you leave here. However, this thing right here is causing me to question whether I did my job right in the beginning.

Dionne: Exactly.

Shanta: So, please address me as someone who’s just having a challenging day. That’s why they say, you never know what someone’s going through. So, if you just treat people the way you want to be treated, I’m sure most of us want to be treated kindly, we’ll be okay.

Dionne: Yeah, that’s so true.

Shanta: And please, treat her the same way because she’s a very lovely girl. She has a beautiful soul. She’s so kind and very loving. But she goes from zero to 100 and point 1. And it’s just like uh! But that’s because she has a mood disorder, she can’t control that. And sometimes, medication, people saying, “Oh, you’ve medicate–” please don’t judge me for medicating my child. Do not judge me for doing the thing that my child needs because not every herbal supplement is going to get the job done. Not every behavior plan is going to work for her. I’m telling her to go to sleep earlier. It does not work because she has sleep issues. You know what I’m saying? Exercise. When you have anhedonia, which is a lack of desire to do things that she used to enjoy. I’m sorry. It’s not going to happen today. We got to take baby steps. So, please don’t judge me that I have medicated my child. And if you do, keep it to yourself.

Dionne: I like that. Keep it to yourself. Keep it to yourself. So, what has been the most difficult in the past in trying to get help for your child?

Shanta: Even as a clinician, not really knowing all the resources. And I know a lot of resources but not knowing all the resources that are out there that can be helpful. But again, sometimes that mom guilt really, really gets in the way. And that keeps you from saying, “Okay, this is not about me. It’s about her. So, let me ask for this resource.” Or not recognizing what a resource actually is. So, my daughter has 504 which is great. That’s a medical impairment form. She can get coverage and services at school. Different accommodations to help her in the classroom. And IEP recognizes that my child has a disability which gives her more coverage. So, you’re thinking, “Oh, IEP–” they were like, “Oh yes, we’ll put her in special ed. and we’ll have an extra teacher.” But that protects her when she goes to college, that protects her further in high school. That does give her access to additional resources. That says, if she’s in a program and she’s having some behaviors that are challenging and causing maybe some issues per her IEP, you cannot put her out. I need you to work with her. I need you to follow this educational plan that we have in place. So, she continue to be here and receive the services because what we fail to see is people implementing the resources that they have. So, we don’t use what we have properly. And we allow our children to be circumnavigated in taking all of these different ways. This is really not beneficial to them when the tool the you had works really well, if you know how to use it.

Dionne: So, if you can name one tool, because you name the IEP and the IEP works. And I love when you said that not everything works for everybody and there’s so many different things you– so, if you had to think of one tool that you could say, this was the moment that’s like, this is working. This is good.

Shanta: So, let’s see. She does– currently, she utilizes her 504 mostly. We haven’t had to say, “Look, this is IEP level stuff.” Her 504 works for her and 504 work for a lot of youth. Her 504 has accommodations such as she can have extra time on her homework. She can get an extra day on her homework or she can get extra time on testing, regular testing and standardized testing. She can test in a small room. She can test on the computer because my child, due to her processing issues, works better on a computer then with pen and paper. Now, granted, we’re all moving away from pen and paper, but there are still some environments where they do it and it’s like, “Look, this is what has been told to me, my child is good at. I need you to look at her strengths and work there.” And I think we fail to sometimes recognize that even children with mental health and behavioral issues, they have strengths, we overlook those because sometimes the behaviors are so escalated, there’s just– I cannot take this anymore. This behavior is driving me bananas. Please, always look at your child’s strengths. Remind them who they are and how awesome they are. My daughter, I have a WiFi password and I’m like, what is this password? And she’s like– I’m like, really? Because all the pound signs and the lower case letters and the underscore, I’m like, really? But okay, you are awesome. And don’t put it on what is wrong, it’s “you are awesome. You remember that? I can’t. That’s great. You fixed the computer? Wonderful. Because I just sat it over in the corner and went and bought another one. So, if you did that, please remember that you took the time to go in and look at the system and figure out what the issue was and you work through that process. And you made it correct. You can do that.” And so, we relate to their strengths. And we relate them back to how they can manage their own care.

Dionne: That’s important. That’s so important. Speaking of self-care because I know when you said, your self-care. So, tell us right now, are you swimming? Are you drowning? Are you treading water?

Shanta: I never tread water. I’m horrible at treading water. Like in real life, I’m like just going through a crisis. I suck at treading water. I float. And that is my preferred method.

Dionne: Tell me more about floating.

Shanta: So, actually, it’s my one of my self-care methods. I go to the pool and I just float. And it is a time where I’m literally just weightless and I don’t think about what’s going on. I look at the lights in the ceiling or I close my eyes and I just lay there and let it all go. And sometimes, we really have to realize, we can’t carry all of this, anyways. We just need to sit it down somewhere and let it go for a little while. So, being in the pool for 30 minutes, that’s my self-care, really. Like on days, when I really need to work something out, then I’ll swim and I usually do a crawl. But that’s– I mean, most of us are swimmers, except my one child. [Laughs]

Dionne: And my son is not.

Shanta: She’s like, “No, I can’t do this.” But swimming is my preferred method of self-care just because I find it so relaxing. I think treading water is a lot of work and when you’re trying to get through something, you want to try and let go of as much as possible. You want to purge all the unnecessary weight. You just carry what you need. And generally, we find what we need is going to be inside of us because a plan is always in our head. We don’t need extra papers or notebooks or bags to carry a plan. Because when the plan is necessary for the foundation or the benefit of your family, you’re going to hold that in your head and in your heart. We let all the rest sort of it go.

Dionne: That’s a good point.

Shanta: But I love to swim. I love a mani pedi, too. I’m not going to lie.

[Laughter]

Shanta: I like to be pampered. But I think that we must also recognize that sel- care doesn’t really have to cost. Meditation is a great way to take care of yourself. I write notes to myself. I write notes on my mirror. I have a current message on my mirror, “You are a great partner worthy of love.” Because we need to remind ourselves sometimes. And sometimes when you’re working with other people and it seems like there’s so much going on, just a simple reminder is nice. I do aromatherapy.

Dionne: Yeah, I saw you– like perfume. [Laughs] Aromatherapy.

Shanta: That was like [makes a sound].

Dionne: [Laughs]

Shanta: So, I make my own like linen sprays. I do a nice lavender linen spray that I spray on my bed when I change my sheets. Before I get into the bed. [Laughs].

Dionne: I like it. I love aromatherapy.

Shanta: Yes. Peppermint. I did a peppermint and eucalyptus one, just for like a refresher and it helps too with memory. So, I’m like, [makes a sound] and walk into it. It uplifts and kind of invigorates so you can go off and do your thing and you smell good.

Dionne: Yes.

Shanta: [Laughs]

Dionne: On top of it you smell nice.

Shanta: Yeah. And it doesn’t cost a lot like– and I bake.

Dionne: I want to come to your house.

Shanta: Yeah, I bake a lot because baking makes me feel good and then the people I give my goodies to, they feel good, too. Cakes and brownies and cookies and stuff.

Dionne: So, I know this is part of advocacy. This is– this– we’re at the National Federation. And most of us are advocates. Is there an organization, a particular group– I see you have a thing here that you want to talk about or give a shout out to.

Shanta: Well, I work with the Younger Years and Beyond, which is a federation chapter. And I’m very excited about the work with them because I don’t work with the younger years. I work with the “beyond” part.

[Laughter]

Shanta: So, and that’s very exciting to me because while catching, intervening early in life is great. I mean we absolutely have to be a net for our adolescents. We really have to show them how to care for themselves, how to advocate for themselves, how to be mindful of what’s going on with their bodies. And adolescence is a very challenging time. So, just being an educator and helping out through Younger Years and Beyond is really just a privilege because I get to help, say, how can you identify the things that trigger you. How can you identify ways to ground yourself. How can you talk to your psychiatrist or your psychologist. How can you let them know what you need. So, helping young people advocate for themselves is really important to me. So, I’m very excited about that.

Dionne: Well, thank you so much for participating and sharing all your wisdom and focus on self-care and self-care techniques, real self-care techniques with us.

Shanta: Thank you.

Dionne: Spending some time with us while we’re here. I really appreciate it. And I know everybody who’ll be listening will appreciate it, too.

Shanta: Thank you.

Voice over: You’ve been listening to Ask the Advocate. Copyrighted in 2018 by Mothers on the Frontline. Today’s podcast host was Dionne Benson-Smith. The music is “O”, written, performed and recorded by Flame Emoji. For more podcasts and this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to Mothers On The Frontline or subscribe on Apple podcasts, Android, Google Play or Stitcher.

[end]

Fidelia’s Journey to Advocacy: From Incarceration to Family Advocate, Ask the Advocate Series, episode 1

In this episode, we listen to Fidelia from Northern California. Fidelia has three children: two sons with behavioral challenges and a 11 year old daughter with anxiety. She shares her journey of mental illness, motherhood, incarceration, and advocacy.

Transcription

[music]

Women’s voice: Mothers On The Front Line is a non-profit organization founded by mothers of children with mental illness. We are dedicated to storytelling as a method of both children’s mental health advocacy and caregiver healing. Our podcasts consist of interviews of caregivers by caregivers out in the community. This results in less polished production quality, but more intimate conversations rarely available to the public. Caregivers determine how they are introduced and the stories they share. We bring these personal experiences to you with the aim of reducing stigma, increasing understanding, and helping policymakers recognize and solve the real unmet needs of families dealing with America’s current children’s mental health crisis.

[music]

Tammy: Today, we start a new format for Mothers On The Front Line called Ask the Advocate. In this series, we hear from mental health advocates about their journeys to advocacy, and what it is meant for their lives. I am pleased to be speaking to Fidelia from Northern California today. Fidelia has 3 children, 2 sons with behavioral challenges and an 11-year-old daughter with anxiety. She also experiences mental health challenges herself.

[music]

Tammy: Hello. Tell us a bit about yourself and the kind of advocacy work that you do.

Fidelia: Um, well, I’m a mother of 3 children, 2 grown sons, and 11-year-old daughter. I’m a mental health advocate for Alameda County in Northern California.

Tammy: So, how did you become an advocate? What got you involved?

Fidelia: I had to advocate for myself and before I could learn to advocate for my children, I’ve been undiagnosed for most of my adult life. I got diagnosed at the age of 35 that I was bipolar, I had PTSD, and I suffered from severe depression. Prior to that, I didn’t believe anything was wrong with me. But so many challenges that I had on the day-to-day basis, making good decisions, healthy decisions, became overwhelmingly just non-existent. I kept ending up with really bad results no matter what I chose to do, and I didn’t understand why, and it was continuous. And so, I started to self-medicate, pretty much just, you know, didn’t know what to do, I just knew that there was nothing wrong with me. My daughter was taken from me twice. Finally, I was just like, you know, there’s got to be something wrong here because it doesn’t matter what I do, nothing’s working out well. I keep ending up in these terrible, you know, situations with, you know, not very good results. And so, there’s got to be something, I need to talk somebody. And so, they came to me and told me, “You know, we’re going to adopt your daughter out,

Tammy: Oh, gosh!

Fidelia: We’re not going to give you services.” I was in jail as a result of poor choices again. I was like, “You know what? If foster care’s going to be the best thing for my daughter right now, I think that’s the best thing going because, right now, I need help. I can’t be a good parent if I’m falling apart, and I need somebody to help me learn how to help myself.” That’s where advocating came in because I had to advocate to get my mind right, to get my life right. And in order to be a good parent, I needed to be straight. So, I was given an evaluation, a psychiatric evaluation, because I requested that. And then, I requested a therapist. They gave me a therapist. And then, I started seeing a psychiatrist, then they prescribed me medication. And once I started taking medication and talking to my therapist on a regular basis, things completely changed. I caught up with myself. I caught up with my mind. I was able to process feelings without acting out impulsively, compulsively, and it was a game-changer because it was like, “Oh, wow. I’m mad right now, but I’m not putting my fist in a wall.” You know? I’m not slashing tires [chuckles] or being ridiculous. That’s where it began for me. And so, I could recognize behaviors in my children, and then I’m like, “Hey. That’s little mini-me right now, undiagnosed.” And then, I was able to start advocating for my sons. My daughter had a speech delay, so I got her assessed, and had I not known anything and got a little education on mental health, she wouldn’t have been assessed. And so, she had a 40% speech delay. I was able to put her in speech therapy. Now, she talks all the time.

Tammy: That’s great though.

Fidelia: But, I’m happy for that. You know what I mean? Without that extra help, you know. Who knows how that would’ve turned out. Also, she suffers from anxiety. She is diagnosed with anxiety at the age of 2 because she was taken from me twice. She stayed with her grandmother, and then when I got her back, it was separation anxiety. So, I couldn’t get her to sleep in her own room for about a year, and I had to use the tools that I had, which was parenting magazines. I had no advocate. I had no family partner. I had none of those things that are in place nowadays. I had to do it for myself, so I spent a lot of time just trying to ask questions and getting help. And, you know, how most people don’t appreciate having CPS and an attorney, and a child’s attorney, and the district attorney, and the judge. Well, I used all these people as my support. You know what I mean? I needed somebody to keep the fire lit underneath me, so I would never have to go through this again. And so, I began advocating for myself. I began completing case plans. When they wanted to close my case, I advocated, “I need you to keep it open another year. I need to make sure that I am solid in my sobriety, in my mental health, and everything else, so I don’t ever have to see any of you people ever again.” That’s where it began for me, I started advocating, and then I just stayed advocating, and I still advocate and now, I help other parents whose children come into the clinic, where they’re seeing for behavioral –  mental health challenges. I help the families, the mothers, the grandmothers, the fathers, the caregivers, the foster parents, and it’s like, “So, what challenges are you facing?” Because not only is the child challenged right now, you’re challenged. You’re the one sitting up at night. You’re the one having to call the police. You’re the one not sleeping because your child’s not sleeping. You know, you need self-care or, you need help with SSI, how can I support you? That’s what I do today, you know. I have had clients say, you know, how parents, who have mental health challenges as well, then we know they’re like, “I’m supposed to be taking anti-depressants.” And I’m like, “Well, why aren’t you taking them?” And they’re like, “I don’t need that. Do you take medication?” And I dig in my pocket, and pull out my pills and say,

 

Tammy:

 

Fidelia: “Yes. Every day. Chill pills at 5 o’clock. I need to act right ’till I can get through the day so I can model for my children how to act right. And then, so the next thing I know I have a client come back in with later saying, “I’ve been taking my pills for about a week and I feel good!” I’m like, “That’s what’s up!”

Tammy: [laughs]

 

Fidelia: “I need you to feel good so you can get through this ’cause this whole process is challenging.” And so, that’s what I do every day and I love it but it’s from lived experience, my own lived experience, not just my child’s lived experience, but mine.

 

Tammy: That must make you just a great advocate. Can you talk a bit about how in your work, experiences that you’ve had? With you having lived experience, it was a game-changer at being able to help someone, so you give this great example. What about with working with parents helping their youth– Is that, can you give other examples? Because I think that’s so powerful.

 

Fidelia: The what? My lived experiences?

 

Tammy: To be able to share that with others.

 

Fidelia: Well, I share it with them all in time. I have no shame in what I’ve been through. I’ve been through exactly what I was meant to go through, so I could help other people get through it. So, whether it be, you know, going to IEPs, I’m there to support them. I tell them, “Well, what are your concerns? I need you to write that down, so you can voice that because your voice needs to be heard at these IEP meetings. They’re not experts on your child, you are. You need to tell them what it is that you believe your child needs to get through a productive school day, not being called to come pick up your child.” So, helping them was like changing in front of my 504-planet school, and making the school district accountable for the education and special resource teachers that are supposed to be in play when their child has an episode. You know, so they can say call up and say, “Hey. You know what? Where’s the resource teacher? You know, you can’t keep sending my child home. He’s not getting the education.” And I helped them through that process. I helped them through the process of personal relationships. I’m a survivor of domestic violence. “Are you in an abusive relationship? Well, what is it that you need to do so you can feel safe, so your child isn’t walking around on edge, who’s suffering from PTSD from witnessing this, and you have PTSD.” We talk about all kinds of personal things because I’ve been through all those personal things; substance abuse, incarceration, I’ve been there, you know. So, we can run the gauntlet of what you want to talk about, but I get them to open up because I’ve already done it. You know, not once, not twice, but probably six or seven times, and still, didn’t get the message that I was supposed to get. So, that’s how I help in any area just about. And if I don’t know about it, then we go and find about it together. That I’m coming to your house, we’re going to meet for coffee, I’m going to meet you at this school, whatever, come to my office. I’m there to support them. They’re my client, you know. So, that’s how I do other advocating.

 

Tammy: You said you went so many years without a diagnosis. Right?

 

Fidelia: Mm-hmm. Yes.

 

Tammy: What kind of things are you saying that have changed, that might make it more likely someone in that situation gets a diagnosis and gets help? Or, this could be the case too, what are you seeing in her, like, “Darn, nothing’s changed here on this issue.” You know what I’m saying?

 

Fidelia: You know, the thing that I noticed and has changed is just on approach, and, you know, to culturally– different cultures and how they approach, and how they deal with mental health, a multi-cultural. And so, the family I grew up in, it was just, you didn’t do psychiatrists, he didn’t take medication. You prayed, and you asked God to fix your mind, you asked Jesus to heal and touch your mind and cure you of whatever mental illness that you had. That didn’t happen. So, I see, now, that there are clinics for children, and when I was growing up. If there were some, we never heard about them. I think, if I were on medication as a child, if I was diagnosed as a child, instead of told that I needed Jesus and that I had demons in –  I probably did with the little help along with the mental health aspect, it contributed,

 

[laughter]

 

Fidelia: –but I think, now, that if I would’ve had that growing up, and how things would probably, more than likely, would’ve been so different for me. A lot of different choices would’ve made because of my mind. Would’ve been in a mindset, my medication would’ve had me thinking differently. And, that’s what I see differently now is that there’s clinics, and clinics and clinics for our behavioral mental health challenges for children. And, when I was in school, you didn’t have a school psychologist, you had a school nurse. That was it. And that was it. So, that’s–

 

Tammy: So, that’s a big positive change?

 

Fidelia: That’s an absolutely amazing change! I think if you can nip it in the bud or get– not so much as nip it in the bud but kind of get a handle on it, you know, while they’re young. It makes for a different future for them that could be more positive than just letting it go, and being like, “Oh, that’s just Charlie. That’s just how he is.” I mean, there’s more to it. It turns into something really serious as an adult. Your decisions, and your choices, and your boundaries, there are none, because everything you’re doing is your normal, and it’s just– it’s not healthy.

 

Tammy: I guess my next question is, what keeps you doing the advocacy work? Because quite frankly, I’m sure it gets hard sometimes, especially when you see things be voted down in terms of funding for programs or all the kinds of things that the disappointments that can go with the advocacy work. What keeps you going through it?

 

Fedilia: Because I’m good at it.

 

Tammy: [chuckles]

 

Fedilia: I’m good at it.

 

Tammy: I can tell. [laughs]

 

Fedilia: I don’t take ‘no’ for an answer. I just refuse to hear it. You could tell me ‘no.’

 

Tammy: [chuckles]

 

Fedilia: But, I’m going to still keep coming at you, and then I’m gonna rephrase the question in a different way, and hopefully you didn’t get it, but eventually, I’m going to get a ‘yeah.’ Whether you’re telling me “Yeah,” just to get me out of your office. That’s all– I got to ‘yeah.’ I’m good for it.

 

Tammy: That’s right.

 

Fedilia: So, I keep going. And all parents should once you figured out, “Okay. This is what it is, and this is my child? This is my child! Not taking ‘no’ for an answer. No no no.

 

Tammy: That’s right. That’s right. I just want to thank you for all that you’re doing, for all the people that you’re helping. It’s a huge thing. And also, again, as a parent, I love to see success stories, they give us so much hope and to get people hope for the middle going throughout this themselves right now. So, just thank you so much for all that you’re doing. You’re such a light.

 

Fedilia: Thank you for your time and your consideration.

 

Tammy: Thank you.

 

[music]

 

Tammy: You have been listening to Ask the Advocate. Copyrighted in 2018 by Mothers On The Front Line. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is written, performed, and recorded by FlameEmoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to mothersonthefrontline.com

 

[end]

 

When they see your child as “different” and turn away. Just Ask Mom Podcast Series, Episode 6

In this episode, a mother and grandmother from Iowa talk about the difficult journey of changing diagnoses, medications, and symptoms during the early childhood of their son and grandson who has Tourette’s Syndrome, OCD, and ODD. They discuss the importance of support groups, recognizing your own needs (especially when they might be different than the needs of your family members) and making sure to honor them. In their case, the need to be social and get out with other people.

 

Transcription

Speaker: Welcome to the Just Ask Mom podcast where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illness.  Just Ask Mom is a Mothers on the Frontline production. Today we will speak with a mother and Grandmother from Iowa. Today they will be speaking about their elementary school-aged son and grandson who has Tourette’s Syndrome.

 

Tammy: Today we’re doing something a little bit different. We have a mother-daughter pair. I’m going to ask you both to just tell us a little bit about yourselves?

Mom: Okay, I’m an Iowa mom. I have a son who has Tourette’s, OCD and ODD –  major diagnosis there. Yes, some other ones too. He’s at grade school and we live in Iowa.

Tammy: Great.

Grandmother: And I’m the grandmother of a grandson with mental health issues and I’m here to support my daughter and my grandson.

Tammy: Great. So before we get started, I’m going ask each of you just to tell us a little bit about yourself before mothering. What were your passions? Or outside of mothering, what do you enjoy or when you fantasized about the kid’s going off and you having a moment to yourself, what would you do? [Laughs] So just what’s interesting to you as a person?

Mom: Oh boy. [Laughs] Let’s see. I used to like to sleep. [Laughs] Like I would sleep, stay up watching movies on TV and then go to bed late and stay up late and then sleep in late.

Tammy: That sounds so nice.

Mom: Yeah. [Laughing]

Grandmother: And I as the grandmother, prefer reading. Used to enjoy dancing but as the kid’s say, “Oh, yuck! Not that.”[Laughing] and gardening. I like to garden and just be current. Go on little road trips. I do fantasize having a palm tree in my front yard and a big lounge chair on each side.

Tammy: That does — especially during the winters. That’s a very attractive thought.

Grandmother: Yes. Not, not a real palm tree –  artificial – so I don’t have to worry about it dying but –that would be happy. That’s looking at happy in my eyes. Joy.

Mom: If going ‘happy’, I want the in ground pool at the backyard. [Laughs]

Tammy: [Laughing]. That sounds good too.

Grandmother: Just a fantasy.

Tammy: Awesome. Well, I want to ask you to pretend you’re talking to families who are feeling lost. They don’t have a diagnosis yet for their child but they know something’s going on. I’m wondering if you could tell us what would you say to those mothers? What would you say to family members or relatives, grandparents? As families are going through this and trying to determine what’s going on with their child?

Mom: I would just say something that helped me was to just research, research, research. Again, the internet, I googled everything. You know and then we kind of fell into a support group that helped us. There was a children’s therapy center. We didn’t actually go there for therapy because our insurance didn’t cover it. But we found out that they have a support group there on Saturday mornings. So we thought, you know, let’s just go and try this and see if we can meet other people that have kids that may have issues that can help us and stir us where to go. And so that really was our saving grace.

Grandmother: That’s true. I find — getting into this in my estimation, doctors really don’t know a whole lot. And each doctor you talk to has a different field of expertise. And they want to lead you down the path that they think you should go. Even though it may not be the right path. And so you’ll go down that path and you realized nothing is changing. So then you go back and you try and find another doctor. You start all over again and hope for the best. And that may not be, it either, it, it just is — it’s been — with the support group and talking to other parents that have saved us in. It took, it took months before we were actually able to face the fact that well, my grandson had a mental illness. We did not have it at least recognized in the family before if it was there. No one knew about. No one was directed to any special person to take care of it. So it was new to us and we were, we were just lost. We were just– Basically, we were, we were out to sea and we have no life line until we found the children’s center and then we found out that there are other people who are in that similar situation that we’re in.

Tammy: I think one of the things with children’s mental health, in particular, — what you’re saying so far is true of any kind of illness, right? Physical, mental. If you don’t, it — just finding out what it is, you’re at sea until you know what’s going on. What’s particularly difficult with children’s mental illness is their brains are developing and changing. So even if you get a diagnosis, that might change. So you can be lost, found for a little bit, lost again [laughs]. I’m just wondering if you’re can talk about?  Has that been some of your experiences as well? I mean it’s such a journey and how does having a support group help? Even once you find that support group — is that journey helped with the support group as well or…?

Mom: Well, I mean the support group has definitely helped us because there were periods where we would go through really, really deep lows with what was going in the family. Then you kind of get to a point where you can celebrate one day [laughs] One horrible month might have a good day and you need to learn to celebrate that. It just helped us going to the support group and talking with other people because they would sometimes say the same thing and we could learn that the kids’ behaviors might be based on seasonal changes –  or just significant life changes.

Grandmother: Yes. Children don’t like change in their lives. And it often happens. They can’t prevent it. And they don’t know how to deal with it when it does happen to them. We found through dealing with all of this that we have to try to change with them and help them through it. Medication was a big thing. What might work for two weeks will suddenly not work at all and then you get another medication. Pretty soon several medications and it just does not work for their little bodies.

Tammy: Yeah. There’s so much changing at once, it’s hard to know what’s doing what. I think that’s right. What do you want people to know as their trying to navigate this? So reaching out is one thing. I’m hearing.  How do you manage to have hope during that time? To sort of push your way through and take care of yourself during that time? Because it’s rough. It gets pretty dark, when you’re not sure what’s wrong with your child because we want our kids okay. We want to keep them safe.

Grandmother: And when you do find out, often times, you are, sad to say, shunned.

Tammy: Yes.

Grandmother: Because you have a child that’s different from most of the children in the neighborhood. And they look at you and say, “We know who you are but we prefer not to be with you because your child is different. Your child cannot relate to ours”. And, and in our case, we have a child who can relate better with adults than with children.  – He can start talking to any adult on their level and I have had many of them come back to me and say, “What a nice young man you have there. Very pleasurable, very knowledgeable. Very nice”. But on his pure level, he just cannot communicate with them. They don’t essentially get him. And that has been extremely difficult for him and difficult for me because I know he’s trying so hard. But they just don’t see it. And oh the pain just hurts so bad to see them making fun of him. But I don’t, I don’t know how to combat that, we just go on our merry way as best as we can.

Tammy: Yeah. It’s so painful to see your child suffer, but when it’s out of the cruelness of someone else…

Grandmother: …it’s even worse…

Tammy: …it’s worse…

Grandmother: Yes.

Tammy: I think because that can be helped, right?

Grandmother: It can.

Mom: A lot of it is just the misunderstanding. Because they don’t understand what’s going on with that other kid because the kid looks “normal”. They’re thinking, “Why is the kid doing those weird things. Why is he saying those weird things? Why is he acting like that?” Sometimes you hope that if you would just explain it to them, they would get it and they would understand more. And sometimes they don’t. And sometimes it just takes more education and they do end up understanding more and coming along and then they get a better picture of what’s going. I would still say just reaching out to other people because even in the support group we found a couple people within the group that we were able to reach out in really difficult times and just call them or text them or email them and say, “I need you to meet me for a coffee out my backyard”. [Laughs]. Because I’m barely holding on by a string. So just making that point with somebody else. To know that they’re there. And then you talk and you laugh for like 20 minutes. And then you could go back to doing what you were doing. You can go back to fighting.

Grandmother: Yes, it is important to have someone that you can maybe bond with over your problems that might have the same problem.

Tammy: Yeah, I think that’s important. So, we’ve been asking everyone this – and from my own experience, it changes from moment to moment – most people I talk to say the same thing – so at this moment, where do you find yourself? Do you feel like you’re swimming, drowning, treading water? Where do you find yourself?

[Laughing]

Grandmother: At this moment, not last night.

[Laughing]

Mom: I know. Because there’s never a dull moment. There’s always a new development. And always relates to social issues, I swear.

Grandmother: Well your 11th-year-old son likes girls now.

Mom: Oh my goodness.[Laughs]. Uhm, swimming, drowning or treading water?

Tammy: Yeah.

Mom: Treading water. Today?

Tammy: Yeah, today.

Mom: Today, okay. As of this morning, we were swimming.

Grandmother: [Laughing]

Tammy: Let’s talk about that. That’s a big deal because I, I find on my own experience – and I’m talking to a lot of moms –  it changes

Mom: By the hour.

Tammy and Mom: By the hour.

Tammy: Yeah.

Mom: It really does.

Tammy: And that itself can be very almost traumatizing because you can’t play, you can’t think ahead.

Mom: It’s interesting because I was just thinking about that on the way here because I kept thinking it takes me longer to recover from an episode than it does him.

Tammy: (in a whisper) Yeah.

Mom: And so that was part of my thing today going. I need to try and regroup and get it together and pull myself together from one of the episodes that happened last night with him and other kids because of social issues. He recovered. He went to bed last night and woke up this morning and had a good day and it was fine and everything’s good. But the grandmother and the mother are still going [made a sigh of relief] “Oh, boy.”

Tammy: Yeah. What can we do in times like that? Because that’s true, right? There’s this all-of-a-sudden “okay, everything’s fine” and we’re like, “No, it’s not”.

Grandmother: You dropped him off. You thought things were fine. Yet and then you get the phone call.

Mom: Well, we were excited because he’s trying to reach out and make new friends.  And he did make a couple of new friends and he was texting them on his phone. And so then it was one of those things where, “okay, he wants to get together with new friends”. And then you know, just in a course of like 2 minutes of him getting together with new friends, it took a really bad turn. That negative thing happened and then he was like, “I want to leave: you need to come get me”. Sometimes you think you’re doing so well and you think, “Oh good, he’s making friends. He’s reaching out and these other friends are reaching out to him” and then all-of-a-sudden you find out, in a bad moment, the kids really weren’t being friends or that other kids were involved and they were definitely bullies…

Grandmother: …taking advantage of him…

Mom: — “Oh, good we finally going down the right road”. But then you, and in just 2 minutes it subsides down and then you have to re-evaluate, weigh everything again.  Yeah. So, reaching out because I will go out with two girlfriends tonight and have dinner and drinks. “That’s how I’m going to cope.  I was going to cancel that because then my child was having some kids over and I said, “too bad”. My husband is just going take care of it because I’m going out with those girls. Because I need to go out with those girls. And then tomorrow, I’m going to go to lunch and a play with somebody that I know because if I don’t get out of the house this weekend then I’m not, I’m not going make it. Because I’m just at the end of my rope.

Tammy: This gets into the next question: what is your self-care routine, or if more appropriate survival technique?

Mom: Reaching out to other people and socializing. Because I have a husband and two boys at home that don’t meet my needs [Laughing] because they don’t communicate. They all have their own space. They’re very individual. They’re very alone. So then I am not able – being the social person that I am – to talk to them and just carry on conversations with them and to communicate. Because if they’ve done that all day in work or school, then they come home and they just want to come down and have down time. So I need to socialize. I need to get out of the house.

Grandmother: That’s good that you realized that.

Mom: I have, I have to do that. And I’ll realize after a few weeks, even if not getting out of the house, just being home every day taking care of the kids after school or after I get done working –  I just realize I’m very alone. That is when I have to say, “I need to go out and get with other people”.

Tammy: I can relate. What about you?

Grandmother: I have my weekly get-out group. We meet at least once a week and we road trip or we do lunch here or whatever. I have my friends. Sometimes I just take a book. Leave my phone behind. Don’t hear the door bell and just go sit on my porch and I’m in Lalaland by myself. Sometimes you just need to get away from it and find a group situation and I — I do have a good group.

Tammy: Good. So we always end this question. I think as you’ve all heard before, I think we’ve all said this a lot – “If we didn’t laugh, we’d be crying all the time” [laughing].

Mom: Ah-hmm. Which is the honest-to-God truth,  just us to get through.

Tammy: Yeah. And so we just like to open it up. Is there a laughable moment you’d like to share? Something that makes you laugh?

Mom: There are so many but a week ago, I put the beef roast in the crack pot and I had it all sitting on the counter and I had it all ready to go and then I turned it on and went to bed. And woke up the next morning and I checked the beef roast  – it was still uncooked. I thought, “Oh! My gosh, it must be broken. After all these years I must have burned it out”. Well, my husband’s like “Well, it would have helped if you would have plug it in”.

Tammy and Grandmother: [Laughing]

Mom: So we had to throw away 20 dollars-worth of beef roast because I hadn’t plugged the thing in all night long. See know I can’t even tell you what that thing is because I have such brain fog.

Tammy: Right. Would is actually something to talk about? We probably should have a whole show on this because it is hard to think clearly when you’re not getting enough sleep, when you’re having these emotional up and downs constantly, right? It’s hard to think straight.

Mom: Uh-hmm. Yep, it is.

Tammy: So I can relate to not plugging something in. That seems completely normal to me actually [laughing].

Mom: You’re like, “Oh! Shoot.”

Tammy: Yeah [laughing]. What about you, what’s your laughable moment to share?

Grandmother: Well I guess, this morning. My grandson and I went to brunch and we went to this restaurant. Our server was very nice. We had gone there previously during the week for his birthday. We got the same server today that we had for his birthday. And when he came over to set the table he said, “Good morning Bruno”.

Tammy: [Laughing]

Grandmother: Who was our server. And he looked up at him and he smiled and he said, “Good morning”. And he said, “What would you like?” And my grandson rattled off what he wanted and what I wanted. He ordered for us and then Bruno left and he said, “You know granny, he’s a nice server. He’s polite, he’s enthusiastic, he’s smiling.” And he said, “I can name seven things that are positive and why he should get a three dollars five cent tip”.

Tammy: [Laughing]

Grandmother: And I said, “Oh, okay,” and then he named most of them. He said, “No, he’s very good”. And then all of a sudden, Bruno came back and he left extra napkins. Which is something that when my husband goes out, we always ask for extra napkins whether anybody wants them or not.

Mom: It’s an OCD thing. (He really has OCD’s so it’s okay.)

Grandmother: So Bruno must have recognized us and he had the napkins and my grandson is sitting there, “Thanks again Bruno. I appreciated that”. And he said, “your food will be out right away”. And he said, “I bet it will”. So it did, it came quickly and so then we ate and it was very good. And so we left a five dollar tip for Bruno.

Tammy: [Laughing]. I just love how specific his calculation was.

[Laughing]

Grandmother: Yeah. He had seven reasons why Bruno should get it –  but I don’t know why he picked three dollars and five cents.

Tammy: [Laughing]. I just loved that.

Grandmother: He’s good at Math but I didn’t exactly get into it.

Tammy: [Laughing]. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you guys sharing your stories.

Grandmother: Okay.

Tammy: Thank you.

Grandmother: Thank you.

 

Speaker: You have been listening to “Just Ask Mom”, recorded and copyrighted in 2017 by Mothers on the Frontline. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is “Olde English” written, performed, and recorded by FlameEmoji. For more podcasts in this and other series relating to children’s mental health, go to MothersOnTheFronline.com.

 

 

[End]

On Raising Children with Schizophrenia Decades Ago, Just Ask Mom Podcast Series, episode 2

In this episode, a mother reflects back on her experience raising children with schizophrenia decades ago. She discusses the difficulty of coming to terms with the diagnosis of schizophrenia, how the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) Family-to-Family program helped her and her children through this journey and the importance of self-care.

Topics discussed include schizophrenia, agoraphobia, NAMI, self-care,

Transcription:

Female Speaker: Welcome to the “Just Ask Mom” Podcast, where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illness. “Just Ask Mom” is a Mother’s on the Frontline production. Today we will hear from a mother and active Mental Health Advocate. She has an adult son with early onset schizophrenia.

Tammy: So tell us about yourself?

Mother: Well I’m considered elderly now, not middle aged. [laughs] I have lived with severe mental illness in my family for close to 18 to 20 years now.  I originally grew up in a small town in Iowa and was involved in everything that you could be involved in in high school. I got a college degree. Went to work for the federal government and raised through the ranks even though I was a woman. Because when I first started they didn’t want women in supervisory positions and I eventually got into them anyway.

Tammy: That’s awesome, thank you by the way from us women who come later, we appreciate all that you did to make the path.

Mother: Mostly, it was like two dollars and 40 cents an hour, that’s what I’ve initially worked. And at that time I was unmarried and had a son. The choice actually was being on welfare or going to work and it was the same amount of money per month. So. It was interesting.

Tammy: So pretend you’re talking to other parents who might not fully understand your experience. What would you want them to know?

Mother: Well, first of all, to take it easy on kids – especially the ones that have some special needs because they’re scared out of their wits by what’s happening to them. And they are always fearful that somehow you’re going to turn them away or make fun of them or be ashamed of them. I just found that he needed me to always have a smile on my face – that you have to make a concerted effort, not ever to be mean to them because that ruins the trust. The focus of a lot of advocacy work that I do is to keep families together. And not to blame anybody, because this is an illness without blame. It’s simply a medical illness and it’s hard to adjust to it. So we have to kind of give ourselves a break there too because I can remember being in denial for a long time and not wanting to accept it, not wanting to let go of my dreams for my kids. Finally its almost like somebody goes ‘whack’ on your face. “Wake up! This is going on and you need to do something about it!” I can remember the first time I tried to tell someone that my kids had schizophrenia. I couldn’t say the word. It took at least half a dozen tries before I could get the actual word out of my mouth. And then I started getting angry. You’ll get angry because you’ll run into a lot of people who simply don’t get it and somehow think your kids have turned into ‘its’, they’ve lost their intelligence, they’ve lost their emotions, they’re some kind of an oddity and you always have to try to turn their attitude on that. So I’m just interested in making sure that kids don’t have any more trauma than absolutely necessary if they have those special needs.

Tammy: So how are you doing right now? Do you think you feel like you’re swimming? Drowning? Treading water at this moment?

Mother: Depends on which topic. I think I’m swimming as far as things are going in our family. With what’s  going on at the State Legislature and nationally and locally –  I think we’re drowning because we are under assault on so many things. So once again, depends on the topic.

Tammy: Yeah. What is your sub-care routine or if more appropriate survival technique? What do you recommend for people to do when it gets really tough?

Mother:, I steered away from anything that was really serious. Like, if you were watching TV.

Tammy: Yeah?

Mother: I would make it a point to watch Disney movies because I didn’t want anything more to really alarm me. Also because you’re so involved with your kids during the day. Once they’re asleep, you know, that’s when I felt I could kind of let my hair down and I could cry after they went to bed. Or if I really needed to get out of my life and into somebody else’s I would read a book. Thirty minutes or an hour of reading before I went to bed would help. I was divorced at the time that this all happened and so many people have turned away because they didn’t know what to say. I didn’t realize it at the time but I was really hungry for a tender touch so one of the first things that I decided to do was to go have my hair done. Because somebody else is washing my hair and it always feels good when somebody’s washing your hair and fiddling around with it. It really didn’t matter whether it turned out nice or not. It was just the fact that it felt good. I also went to full body massages. And I’m going to go back to that. That always made me feel really good too. Physically I had to have some touch that reassured me that I was — I was still here. Emotionally I had to get out of my life into something else. So that’s what I did.

Tammy: So, a lot of times if you’re not laughing, you’re crying or screaming, right? With all that you’ve been through, what is your most laughable moment that comes to mind?

Mother: Oh, the most laughable moment – I had just taken NAMI family to family and one of my kids almost agoraphobic where they didn’t want to go out because they had so many panic attacks. They were afraid that no matter where they went, people would remember them and make fun of them or all that kind of stuff. And I came home from work one day and my child was sitting in the chair and I said, “ I just do not feel like fixing anything for supper, Let’s just go out and eat.” I said “we can afford it, so let’s just go out.” My child looked at me and said, “Mom, you know that I can’t do that,” and I knew because of the Family-to-Family training that there was a certain way I should respond to that. So I said, “hold on just a minute.” I went out of the room and found my book.

[Tammy laughs]

Tammy: They say kids don’t come with manuals, they don’t know about NAMI, I love it! [laughs].

Mother: I looked it up [laughs] and I tried to be calm, As I walked back in I said, “I’m really sorry I didn’t acknowledge that you have a hard time doing that. Maybe we could just order something and have it here. And she looked, she dropped her book and she says, “Oh my God, you actually acknowledge my feelings.” And here all this time when I was going to these classes I knew she was looking at the book. She had been going to a lot of therapy and she knew just as much or more than I did about what I should be doing. I just laughed about that every time.

[Tammy laughs]

Tammy: That’s awesome, that’s so  great. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I really appreciate it.

Mother: Mm-mm.

Tammy: Thank you.

Female Speaker: In today’s discussion, NAMI was mentioned. NAMI is the National Alliance on Mental Illness and NAMI Family-to-Family is a free education program for family, significant others, and friends of people living with mental illness. You can find out more about NAMI and its programs at nami.org

Female Speaker: You have been listening to Just Ask Mom, recorded and copyrighted in March 2017 by Mothers on the Front Line. Today’s podcast host was Tammy Nyden. The music is Olde English, written performed, and recorded by Flame Emoji. For more podcasts in this another series relating to Children’s Mental Health go to mothersonthefrontline.com

[End]